How do I get rid of Rogues camping in my cities?

[SteelSterling]

I have 4 rogues in one of my cities that have taken up residence. I have 3 city guards fortified in the city and guard dogs guarding the city and none of them can do anything about the rogues. Do I just forget it and hope they don't cause trouble?

 

[Flinx]

You might have a look here.

 

[JosEPh_II]

You bring in 4 of your strongest 2 movement units and wait till they decide to leave the city. They will eventually and then you take them out.

If you had been more vigilant you would have spotted them entering into your empire and taken action then. But they sometimes do manage to get in, then you just wait them out.

JosEPh

 

[russianlee]

Just camp a dog in your city and wait for them to leave town, so you can hunt them down.

 

[Gall Anonim]

Just camp a dog in your city and wait for them to leave town, so you can hunt them down.

Dogs must be in every frontier city. And they should have a +1 visibility promotion. Then all other units can see and attack rogues after they leave the city. And they will leave sooner or later, believe me .

 

[ls612]

@Other modders:

You know, I did make a tag to deal with this last cycle, if someone wanted to apply that to rogues that would solve all of these complaints.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Other modders:

You know, I did make a tag to deal with this last cycle, if someone wanted to apply that to rogues that would solve all of these complaints.

What does the Tag allow?

I actually like the way Rogues operate but am curious what you had in mind with this tag.

JosEPh

 

[SteelSterling]

What's funny is I build a lot of dog units exactly for this reason. I build a bunch to patrol and put some on the borders.

 

[ls612]

What does the Tag allow?

I actually like the way Rogues operate but am curious what you had in mind with this tag.

JosEPh

It simply prevents units with it from entering cities you don't own. You can still park rogues next to an enemy and unless they have dogs the rogue will remain invisible.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I've found that the AI likes to have a Rogue or Ambusher "tag" along with either a Healer or Missionary and sometimes a Scout. If you don't have a dog with visibility promo the Healer, Scout. and Missionary will waltz all over your empire hiding the Rogue. So I've taken to having 1 city put out Ambushers in groups of 3 and every AI unit of these types I destroy in my Empire and as they approach my empire.

This keeps about 90% of the troublesome units out, but a few will still make it in. And then if they get in a city you wait them out and pounce on them when they do finally move.

@ls612
I think if your tag was applied Rogues and assassins would become useless again. Just my take on it.

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

I've found that the AI likes to have a Rogue or Ambusher "tag" along with either a Healer or Missionary and sometimes a Scout. If you don't have a dog with visibility promo the Healer, Scout. and Missionary will waltz all over your empire hiding the Rogue. So I've taken to having 1 city put out Ambushers in groups of 3 and every AI unit of these types I destroy in my Empire and as they approach my empire.

This keeps about 90% of the troublesome units out, but a few will still make it in. And then if they get in a city you wait them out and pounce on them when they do finally move.

@ls612
I think if your tag was applied Rogues and assassins would become useless again. Just my take on it.

JosEPh

Is that an issue with the tag or is that an issue with how the AI uses these units?

 

[DRJ]

@ls612
I think if your tag was applied Rogues and assassins would become useless again. Just my take on it.

What about making it like the tag is active with some (control) state or military civics? Or if a city builds a certain building (for example the dungeon with castle mod), in later stages of the game a similar building might be available so the tag is active for the city (barricades or something)?

I really don't like to rule out innovations like a new tag, much better to look where in history certain rulesets like a tag were actually in place and then simulate it in the game as accurately as possible.

I know Joseph that you want simple gaming and you focus on plug 'n' play fun but I really hope some day you will appreciate the floating in the midst of the details and the beauty of never ending additional layers of immense complexity (check out the link you might have missed it when you were young)

 

[Thunderbrd]

I agree with Joseph on this:

@ls612
I think if your tag was applied Rogues and assassins would become useless again. Just my take on it.

Though that tag will be useful for the Felines since I don't think they'd be as capable of sneaking into a city.

The PLAN to actually address this has been discussed elsewhere but I'll summarize it here too:

Criminals will be able to develop an Infiltration ability. There will be a tag for the unit and a tag for promos that enable them to improve it (or reduce it if they wear armor they shouldn't really be wearing for example). Infiltration will represent how skilled the Rogue is at going 'undercover' in enemy territory, to blend in as just another local citizen. This may even apply for a more advanced Spy mechanism as well.

Other units, primarily Law Enforcement units, will be able to develop an Investigation ability. This will also be based on a tag on the unit and a tag for promos so it may be adjusted by skills/equipments.

Both abilities will be modified by building tags on local buildings in the city. So a Bandit's Hideout would also carry the downside of making it easier for Criminal type units to stay in the city without being caught. But a Watch Tower would enhance the ability of authorities to observe the local citizenry. So they would increase the Investigation ability on those units that naturally have some.

Then, every round Criminal units are there, hangin' out, doing whatever they're doing, waiting to take advantage of workers, jumping on weaker military that can be ambushed or simply spreading crime as a bad seed, each unit with Investigation ability makes an Investigation check against the weakest Infiltration ability on Criminal units present.

So basically: % chance of discovery = Investigation - Infiltration.

Therefore, if you have a Law Enforcement unit with a total of 75 Investigation ability in that city and a local enemy Criminal (the lowest among those present is always the one that would be 'next to be caught if any are caught') has a 50 Infiltration ability, the Law Enforcement unit has a 25% chance of succeeding in catching the Criminal.

When a Criminal is discovered, the results can vary based on how much the check has been beat by. A gradient of possible results will exist:

1. The Criminal was spotted but not caught. But now the Investigators have a bonus to catch that criminal next round.
   
   
2. The Criminal was spotted and a chase ensued. The Criminal was very fast and clever however, and managed to escape to the countryside. (Criminal unit is ejected to the next tile from which they cannot be seen by the enemy.)
   
   
3. The Criminal's operations have been raided but somehow he managed to escape to his home country in the process. (Criminal returns to his Capital)
   
   
4. The Criminal's operations have been raided but somehow he managed to get outside the city in the process. However, he's been spotted lurking around the exterior of the community and our military awaits your orders to terminate him. (Criminal is ejected to an adjacent tile.)
   
   
5. The Criminal has been found! A battle ensues between the Investigators and the Criminal! (The Investigator is made to attack the Criminal and combat begins between the two - not graphically displayed as it'd be a same tile combat. - this may also require to instruct the code to give an exception to Law Enforcement's inability to attack unless we're talking about an attack on a Criminal unit.)
   
   
6. Investigators have been observing the Criminal for some time and have managed to bait the Criminal into a lethal trap. The Criminal has been slain without a fight.
   
   
7. Investigators have discovered the Criminal without the Criminals awareness. They set a well planned trap and the Criminal is now behind bars. From here we can:
   1. Trade the Criminal back to the enemy for a diplomatic bonus
   2. Kill the Criminal in a public execution (temporary local +happy bonus and makes an example so -crime)
   3. Interrogate the Criminal for information on his state (+Espionage towards the player he comes from.)
   4. Interrogate the Criminal for information on his Criminal Network (Temporary local bonus to Investigation abilities and a temporary -Crime bonus.)

There's a few things to note about this plan, however. I want to make it possible for the same tags to affect things on a combat class specific basis, thus if we have Rodents hiding in the city, for example, Cats and Mice can use the same basic expressions but guided to be differing by their combat classes. (and results would be different too I figure.)

Some AI will be necessary to teach the AI the value of these abilities.

While the initial setup of the mechanism would be quite simple (perhaps just limited to ejecting the Criminal to an adjacent tile if caught) there's a lot of desired details that would take some time to get processing correctly.

Some of those issues relate to future combat mod plans too so I WAS going to wait. But I've moved this project up in priority given that every month someone complains about the Criminals and we get into this discussion all over again.

 

[JosEPh_II]

What about making it like the tag is active with some (control) state or military civics? Or if a city builds a certain building (for example the dungeon with castle mod), in later stages of the game a similar building might be available so the tag is active for the city (barricades or something)?

I really don't like to rule out innovations like a new tag, much better to look where in history certain rulesets like a tag were actually in place and then simulate it in the game as accurately as possible.

I know Joseph that you want simple gaming and you focus on plug 'n' play fun but I really hope some day you will appreciate the floating in the midst of the details and the beauty of never ending additional layers of immense complexity (check out the link you might have missed it when you were young)

@DRJ,
I do like detail. In fact it's why I played and Modded MoO3 for 7 years. I am an avowed micromanager. But sometimes I'm finding out over the years of gaming (started with Dune 2 in 1994), that too much detail obscures the purpose and hides the Fun. C2C has done this several times for me. But eventually I either adapt or C2C does.

As for ls612's new tag I'm just curious how and when it would be used. Not necessarily dissuade it's usage. As for the Subject of this thread I like how rogues and such operate and the strategies the AI and player has to develop to use and combat.

JosEPh

 

[God-Emperor]

Here is a question:

Don't the buildings that damage enemy units in the city vicinity cause damage to hidden nationality units?

The units lurking in cities are hidden nationality, so they ought to be taking damage if you have these buildings. Since they are not at war with you they can heal some damage per turn at the "neutral" rate, but you should be able to do more per turn than they can heal once you get past the first couple of types of these buildings. Sooner or later they should be forced to leave or die from the accumulated damage.

Unless there is something preventing these buildings from damaging these units. I could seem them not taking damage if they are not revealed, but once you can seem them (via dogs, most likely) they should take the damage shouldn't they? So they question is back to "are they or are they not taking this damage"?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Here is a question:

Don't the buildings that damage enemy units in the city vicinity cause damage to hidden nationality units?

The units lurking in cities are hidden nationality, so they ought to be taking damage if you have these buildings. Since they are not at war with you they can heal some damage per turn at the "neutral" rate, but you should be able to do more per turn than they can heal once you get past the first couple of types of these buildings. Sooner or later they should be forced to leave or die from the accumulated damage.

Unless there is something preventing these buildings from damaging these units. I could seem them not taking damage if they are not revealed, but once you can seem them (via dogs, most likely) they should take the damage shouldn't they? So they question is back to "are they or are they not taking this damage"?

I don't believe they do damage IN the city... just any ADJACENT space.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

One of the things in the WLBO mod is a group of national priorities of which you can choose one to be active at a time. For example

• celebrate cultural diversity - increases relations with other nations, IPs and barbarians, increases happiness and culture in each city but reduces effectiveness of anti-crime and anti-spy buildings, units and so on.
• increase security - reduces foreign relations but increases chances of seeing and expelling foreign rogues and spies etc.

These can be done at the city level or national level at a cost. We might like to have the level of admin building play a role here allowing more priorities per admin level or maybe having different levels of effect.

 

[Thunderbrd]

One of the things in the WLBO mod is a group of national priorities of which you can choose one to be active at a time. For example

• celebrate cultural diversity - increases relations with other nations, IPs and barbarians, increases happiness and culture in each city but reduces effectiveness of anti-crime and anti-spy buildings, units and so on.
• increase security - reduces foreign relations but increases chances of seeing and expelling foreign rogues and spies etc.

These can be done at the city level or national level at a cost. We might like to have the level of admin building play a role here allowing more priorities per admin level or maybe having different levels of effect.

I may be working on a Policies project here... not quite sure yet if that's as far as I'll need to take it for what I've got to do but it would enable this sort of thing. Otherwise we're talking about simple civics categories with that sort of thing - like our Borders civics. That it varies on city/national level makes it a bit different mechanic I suppose.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Not really. In WLBO you just give more money to encourage the buildings/units do their job. Sort of a quick fix. It only lasts a short time then expires. You can't have more than one at a time. They are all general rather than specific.

We already discussed the idea that each building should have a % chance of killing or expelling the rouge line similar to the way spies are done. These options/actions are just city wide actions that throw money at the problem and increase or decrease the chances. I'll see if I can come up with a better list.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ah... so really what its about is investing into a temporary bonus - much like we can do in the Rev mechanism when we bribe our city thus temporarily reducing the revolt sentiment?

That would be an interesting additional factor that could be manipulated into this project's structure I would think.