How do we stop cheaters?

[ainwood]

We have just confirmed the second cheater in GOTM 9, and we really need to define a strategy to prevent / deter anymore cheaters. I thought a thread to discuss how the issue will be policed (or even if it should be policed) would be a good idea.

The two cheaters basically got carried away, and the cheating was quite obvious. More insidious forms of cheating are much harder to determine, so I guess we are still going to have to rely on the "honour system".

The real problem that I have with this is that if you look at behavioural issues (we're touching a bit on psychology here ), you find a bell-curve of behaviours. Where there are proven "extreme" cheaters, there are more than likely lots of less-obvious ones - save and reloaders, trainers to just change one or two (critical) aspects etc etc.

In order to detect cheating, we need something efficient. Loading every save game and manually checking the replay screen is inefficient, and will only detect the blatant cheats. Only checking the save-games of the top scorers is (in my opinion) unfair. If someone cheats, they should be punished regardless of their final score.

Could we perhaps enlist the help of Firaxis or the mod / hack community, to do some automated checking of the save game files? I guess it depends on what data is stored in the .sav file, but given the replay, there may be enough. We could check things like the time taken to research techs and the time taken to build wonders.

If we could enlist the help of firaxis, we could perhaps go for a more complete solution where more data is stored in the .sav file. One thing they could add is that everytime a game is loaded from a .sav file, it would write the game date to that save file - we could then get a list of how many times the player saved and reloaded, and at what dates. 12 reloads at 2000 BC would look very dodgy! If the replay also had the old Civ-I style of recording the first construction of each type of unit, that would be good.

One question: Does the .sav file contain the .bic file parameters now? I thought that it did (for scenario purposes). Can these be changed with a trainer? If so, a utility that extracts these parameters from the .sav game would be useful, and a flag in the .sav file that determines if they have been changed in-game would be good (if someone changes them, then changes them back the turn before winning).

There's not a lot of structure to my ideas above, but please add to this as a brain-storm of ideas. Note that so far I've just listed a couple of ideas for how to detect cheating behaviours; we still need to discuss the structure to undertake these checks, how the cheaters will be punished etc etc.

 

[Cruise]

Good suggestions here. Especially extracting more data out of save files. I think we really should contact Firaxis for this to get more insight in the possibilities.
Personally i have no idea how it all works. I haven't even tried modifying the game by editing the .bic yet

Seeing as of the save files reaching 500k sometimes there must be enough data in there.

 

[Kemal]

I agree having a replay function that gives lots more information would be a great help. About the idea of having a program that can check the amounts of reloads during a game, yes I think that this may be helpfull as reloading is obviously the most easy way of cheating but we I do think we must keep the following in mind:
Not everyone playing the game of the month has the time to play the game the whole way through in just a few sessions. Some players can only spend a couple of hours to their civ a week which means they'll be playing a lot of short sessions. When reviewing such games with a reloadcontrolling program these players will show a lot more reloads than the average. We certainly don't want to have players who are spending their only time playing on civ3 as gotm'ers to be seen as suspected cheaters so I think a carefull approach is needed with this.

As far as the honor system is concerned I say that trusting eachother is the base of having a healthy gaming community and I still believe that, although 2 cheaters have been found in a very short period of time, the overwhelming majority of the players are "clean". If I did not, I would quit.

 

[acjvanv]

In another thread they suggested to put some kind of jury in place to check the top list. Although it would be very difficult to check them all, I think they could serve as some kind of `military police`. Knowing that you`re game could be checked, could scare away a lot of cheaters

 

[ainwood]

Originally posted by Kemal

Not everyone playing the game of the month has the time to play the game the whole way through in just a few sessions. Some players can only spend a couple of hours to their civ a week which means they'll be playing a lot of short sessions. When reviewing such games with a reloadcontrolling program these players will show a lot more reloads than the average. We certainly don't want to have players who are spending their only time playing on civ3 as gotm'ers to be seen as suspected cheaters so I think a carefull approach is needed with this.

This is why I suggested a feature that stored not only the number of reloads, but the dates of the reloads. If someone loads the game 45 times at different game dates and actual times, fine. If someone loads the game 5 times at the same civ date, within 10 minutes, then this is a bit suspicious.

 

[thefrenchzulu]

Best way to stop them reloading is to force them to play on PII like myself. I'm one of those who can sometime only sqeeze in half an hour of play a day. Unfortunatly that means loading the game which takes up to 5 minutes for huge maps!

I think the idea about logging the save date and load date should help. but to review it you need some automate procedure. Manually it might be impossible.

I think the BIC file issue and the use of trainers are much more severe and modified BIC files should be shown in saved games. I remember in CIV2 you could cheat, but it was reflected in your score!

The leader cheat i've posted you will find difficult to police. You only have to reload once for that one...(Everything about leaders)

 

[Cartouche Bee]

It won't stop cheating but I think we should get the 10AD save again.

CB

 

[Greg Loader]

1) I would suggest the posting of results not be delayed for the following reasons:

It punishes the community because of the actions of a few. The faster the feedback, the more enjoyable the experience. It casts suspicion on us all.

2) Wouldn't it be great if Firaxis could come up with a 'competition mode', where the savegame is encrypted and there is no reloading at all. I would be willing to live with bad moves (finger slipped) to play in this manner.

Greg

 

[Beard Rinker]

One possible benifit from a utility that checks for cheaters is it could also be designed to retreive other usefull information from each .sav file. Your score and I think the victory condition are stored in there. It would be easier for the players to submit the .sav file after winning. I usually have to reload my autosave from the last turn and replay it. A utility that extracts this information would be more reliable and would also save Matrix a bit of time.

That also opens up the possibility of using other game statistics for computing a game score. Aeson has come up with a fairly open ended framework for a scoring formula that could be modified to include other statistics.

As for a reload count, I don't quite get how that would be done. If you reload, you are loading from an old file containing old counts. This seems a little easy to circumvent.

 

[BCLG100]

it has only been 2 in 10 games also the really good players dont cheat or at least i dont think they do the only way to do it is to get people to post every few turns but that would get really boring

 

[Phillip_martin]

Originally posted by Cartouche Bee
It won't stop cheating but I think we should get the 10AD save again.

CB

I agree. While not stopping cheating additional saves would open up for viewing the progession of a players game while not spoiling the GOTM for the majority of fair players.

I had suggested in the "Another Cheater" Thread that (if space allows) the GOTM increase its mandatory save game submissions to assist in the checking of games and to benefit those who wish to learn how a game progresses for any player.

In addition to making it mandatory for the 10AD I suggested 1000BC, 500AD and 1000AD as additional examples.

From a small sample of GOTM players we can project that the majority of GOTM players do not care about awards and recognition, just to have fun while being able compare themselves against others (80% of 31 poll responses):
Why Do you play the GOTM Poll

 

[ainwood]

Originally posted by BCLG100
it has only been 2 in 10 games also the really good players dont cheat or at least i dont think they do the only way to do it is to get people to post every few turns but that would get really boring

It has only been 2 in 10 games that have been caught!, and one of those was found to have cheated in an earlier game , which had gone unnoticed.

Originally posted by Beard RinkerAs for a reload count, I don't quite get how that would be done. If you reload, you are loading from an old file containing old counts. This seems a little easy to circumvent.

It is possible - although potentially a lot of work "just" for this! Off the top of my head, civ stores a game "key" in its memory, identifying which game you are playing so that loading a different game won't affect anything. Every time you load or save a game, the key and the load / save data data (game date, actual date/time) are recorded - not just that sav, but the entire history. When you reload, Civ compares the reload game "key" with a register of keys to identify the game. It then retrieves the entire save / load history - not necessarily from the game file itself - and stores it to the game file.

Problems: 1.) Its a lot of work.
2.) This system could probably be cracked in time, so is it worthwhile?

 

[Taé Shala]

Hmhm...

And what about the data protection? :?

It is a constitutional right and I don´t want to tell the whole world when and how long I play CIV.

 

[Creepster]

I like the idea of submitting multiple dates. The 10 AD is fine and mayby a couple of more. The only problem with this is that some people do forget to save at the correct dates. Perhaps we could allow for this with an ideal submission of 10 AD +/- 10 turns.

Looking at the number of times a game is saved may not provide the best data. I know I tend to save a lot at certain points of the game because of the fact that I play at work during lunch. My games sessions are any where from five minutes to an hour depending upon the day. I also have to save a lot because I don't want people to know I am playing. I doupt that I am alone in playing at this time, and this way so this data may be suspect at best and certainly misleading.

 

[Beard Rinker]

Originally posted by Taé Shala
It is a constitutional right and I don´t want to tell the whole world when and how long I play CIV.

Especially our bosses and spouses.

 

[Matrix]

Taé, only I and the "cheat-catchers" can see how long others have played. I reject the idea of this breaking the right pf privacy.

We could make it obligatory again to send in the 10 AD savegame as well. More would take up too much space I'm afraid.

I will ask Jeffrey Morris what's possible to help us. Being able to see when someone has reloaded will really help! First of all how often within a certain amount of time. Secondly (and more important): how often someone has reloaded the same savegame/of the same date. It won't stop someone who plays the game and replays it all over again with the knowledge of the whole map, but I can tell you now already Firaxis won't be able to do something about that, unless they want to adopt the GOTM completely.

Finally, I don't like any of this discussion. I would be very grateful if someone of you would like to be the GOTM Head of Police - so to speak - and I'd only continue with making the results. I'm also not a very good player and not good in catching cheaters. Valeri Kouznetsov was too obvious, but undoubtly others have slipped through without anyone noticing.

 

[Kemal]

Originally posted by Matrix

Finally, I don't like any of this discussion. I would be very grateful if someone of you would like to be the GOTM Head of Police - so to speak - and I'd only continue with making the results. I'm also not a very good player and not good in catching cheaters. Valeri Kouznetsov was too obvious, but undoubtly others have slipped through without anyone noticing.

Yes it's sad that a fun competition like this has to spend a large section of it's forum on discussing how to stop cheaters. However I don't think a Head of Police is needed. If we use a fixed number of (maybe monthly rotating) "policemen" to check on submitted savegames they can notify you of their findings or even put it directly in a forum thread after getting your approval. A suspected cheater can defend him/herself in that thread. The gotm-community can act as judges, maybe by opening a poll 2 days after the discussion about the suspected cheater has started. No need to give you a further burden on your time, others can do the cheat-catching so you continue your work on processing the results (and playing of course) .

Looking at another thread getting a decent "gotm police force" (GPF ) shouldn't be a problem.

Later, when a better way of checking on cheaters has been developed (or when the few rotten apples finally realise that cheating spoils the fun) the GPF can be abandoned. ( No pension awarded I'm afraid )

 

[MSGT John Drew]

the distinguished CFC-staffers could also put up each and every submitted GOTM-saves for the scrutiny of the entire CFC community.

Those of us who are very adamant about cheating can then go on their own 'bust-em-up' operation trying to pin someone for high crimes. Steps to prevent unnecessary accusations, however, must then be taken up.

Rules will have to be put up to be followed by all those who are going to dl these files and check them. Particularly they must not post about it on the boards or it'll have more threads than it can handle. Instead, a way of sending a 'caution' message can be sent to the GOTM-staff or the 'accused' himself without causing undue harm to anyone (e.g. PM, questioning a savegame without giving the name of the file's owner, etc...) The staffers can then take action on whatever decision they have on the subject. "With great 'power' comes great responsibility." The 'power' to cast doubt on anyone's work is great indeed - the effects more so.

It was once said that when you commit a murder, you invariably will do a dozen things wrong. It was also said that if you have to cheat then don't be caught. The best criminals will eventually get away with it. But how many of them can there be?

 

[Matrix]

No one has to check any savegame accept for the GOTM police.

We got a forum of our own (just the 5/6 of us) where we can eventually discuss whether others have cheated. It doesn't have to polute the main forum anymore.