Ultimate_Waffle
The soul devourer.
I want to hunt, but my trackers end up dying from predators or barbarians. Should I be escorting them with other units? What mix of units is good for the purposes of hunting?
How do you go about hunting effectively in this game?
- Thread starter Ultimate_Waffle
- Start date
Ultimate_Waffle
The soul devourer.
I am, yes.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I usually take along a good solid melee unit with my hunters but you can also get away with scouts with good withdrawal sometimes. Don't attack what you can't easily kill. Take care with them until you can get them to Hunter unit or above. If you are playing on Hide and Seek, they can be quite good at being hidden and that can help to avoid some of the nasty stuff out there. This section of the game is designed to be challenging but masterable. Keep working at it and you'll figure out what works for you.
Ultimate_Waffle
The soul devourer.
Okay, thanks. How many hunter units seem to be good? Each unit I build halts city growth, so I don't want to overdo it; but I don't want to be underwhelming about it either.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Depends on how much territory you have to hunt in and how crowded other hunters are there. Some regions you are dealing with sone super lethal predators and you need to take some special actions to kill them before it's worth getting many hunters out. Every game really is different the way you have to adapt to the territory you're in.
Yudishtira
Spiritual/Creative
Back when I started my current game (October), hunters moving into a tile would attack critters they had not known were there. I guess it was an ambush, but the critter got the terrain defence bonus (aka insult to injury). Is that still the case? If so, on Size Matters it's generally a bad idea to move a Tracker or even a Hunter out of your borders - except (maybe) to attack a visible harmless animal and then retreat again. (Just a reminder and for the information of other readers, trackers - 1.33 - and I think hunters are 1/3 weaker on SM, while predators are often 50-200% stronger eg. str 9 caiman. Personally I think it's a bug)
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
It's still the case, which is why it helps to combine your hunters with a strong merged melee unit. You're going to lose some depending on the area. If you send a second hunter and specialize them in visibility promos, you can likely avoid being taken by surprise. In a lot of cases, it's the fact they are getting sneak attacks for surprising you that's the most lethal aspect of it. Some creatures require merged spears AND enhanced visibility to defeat, and may even need a good hunting unit to back that up if you can't quite kill them. Super units CAN emerge but they are rare and intended to be a major challenge to have to overcome if you do struggle with one. Some of the most productive regions to hunt also have the worst predators to counter.
So yes, not ALL games allow you to benefit much from early hunting. Those that do, great, take advantage of it, but if it doesn't, don't keep plugging out units just to send them to the meat grinder or you're wasting your production. Therefore, if your hunters are surviving, keep using them! If not, switch tactics and go more for the reliable investments of your production. That's part of the design intent is to get you to have a different game experience and have to play it out differently every time.
One thing that's coming at some point soon is the ability for a hunter to split up a herd when he fights one and re-engages only 1 of the split 3 units, then tries to further split that one, and keeps doing so until he's isolated his prey completely. This should make hunting much less dangerous in the early eras, depending on what sort of challenge it is you're up against. Won't make the biggest tigers any easier. But then, Smilodons have been found to have adapted those saber'teeth' specifically for the purpose of hunting mankind. Which of course is why we had to kill them all. All. Once our weaponry was strong enough to pull it off anyhow.
rumpelkiste
Chieftain
It's been a while since I played C2C. Now, with v38.5: why can't I attack/subdue animals? My hunters can simply enter the same field that's occupied by an animal. 
Yudishtira
Spiritual/Creative
Firstly, it's only two different experiences
. Secondly, with or without myths and the other early benefits of hunting makes just about one whole difficulty level of difference (maybe more). Thirdly, I would've hoped the effort would be ongoing to make the earlier hunters/explorers (Wanderer and Chaser before the Tracker) more worth building - not less. Don't forget that the animals didn't used to get terrain bonuses, a fair enough change but one in the wrong direction for the usefulness of Wanderers/Chasers etc. The invisibility mechanics (I'm not complaining about them per se they're awesome) also take early hunters further in the direction of useless.And only on Size Matters. As if it needed any more problems. Do you think the Tracker and Hunter should be weaker without SM too?
Well then why not remove the nerf of the hunters until this is done?
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
But many variations between the two poles. That's like saying there's not much of a planet we have here on Earth since there's only hot and cold places. Oversimplifying much? lol
Hmm... well... I still train them so they aren't too lacking. I just experienced sending out a stack of 2 wanderers and a merged group of spiked clubmen since I haven't teched down the hunting path yet. I use the wanderers for the smaller game it won't die trying to kill and the spiked clubmen are fending off Bengal Tigers when needbe. The wanderers are developing the visibility promos so little surprises the stack. They've survived a pretty harsh territory pretty effectively. One wanderer of the 2 did die at some point and now I'm bringing them back to be upgraded to at least trackers now that I've teched the hunting side of things more. Not seeing a balance problem. Wanderers and chasers are great for small game but if they are completely survivable on their own, why would you need trackers and hunters?
We've gotta strongly disagree here. The invisibility capabilities of the hunter are quite profound because it allows them to take risks then expect to be able to heal afterward without everything in the forest seeing and attacking them. Thus, they get respite. Secondly, they can develop such strong sneak attack capabilities with their promotions that they can take out armies despite all the penalties they naturally get towards combatants down usual hunting promotions and native modifiers. You clearly are not yet comfortable with how to exploit stealth units to their fullest power. The stealth also enables them to hit birds fast enough and hard enough for them to not flee - if they really don't see you coming and you hit them with enough stealth attacks to finish their small HP totals before they can potentially withdraw. Furthermore, they have one of the highest visibility abilities towards camouflage and many are high quality so can see through small size factor invisibility as well. LESS useful? I think they're FAR more useful with these dynamics on since they are the beneficiary of some of the greatest gifting in this area.
That's exactly why they are weaker here, yes. They are far too strong in the main game and there's really no strategic care that must be taken with them at all there. Just send them out to harvest. If you want them to be that simple, but still want to keep SM in play, maybe Uncut is a better option for you.
It's not necessarily a bad thing to challenge players to figure out what they can and can't take down. That said, I just had a hunter (with a quality-up promo) take down a 9 pt group of bengals so there's no animal challenge that can't be overcome with the current stats. Just takes teching up and collecting experience to get to that point. Which requires some strategic care to keep your hunting groups from getting slaughtered, which will sometimes happen because you shouldn't be immune to that happening.
I'm not wanting to make that change so that hunting is made easier so much as to reflect the reality that you don't always want to hunt out the whole herd, rather, you'd want to take from it here and there and allow it to continue to be a major food source for as long as you can. Along with that change would also be coming the ability of animals to collect food and expand their group sizes after certain thresholds are reached, as if each animal unit is its own city collecting food yields from the plots they visit (or from the animals they kill if they are predatory.)
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
You're probably talking about your wanderers who start with the Stay the Hand status promotion by default because they are scouting units despite being able to attack and hunt - you'll have to take the action that removes that promotion - but it doesn't cost you any movement in a round to remove it, only to set it if you want it set.It's been a while since I played C2C. Now, with v38.5: why can't I attack/subdue animals? My hunters can simply enter the same field that's occupied by an animal.
Yudishtira
Spiritual/Creative
Two hunter/explorers and three melee units just to make one hunting party. If the opportunity cost of that isn't prohibitive, it should be. And the hunters still die anyway...
You strongly disagree with something very different from what I said. If they survive to have promos to burn, then yes they can make vis/invisibility work for them. But "out of the box", even Hunters face 50% survival odds every forest tile they move into, and that's just from unmerged str 4 predators. The odds quickly reach impossible for Trackers/Chasers/Wanderers, or when merged 4.5-9 str predators are factored in.
I'd like to try the non-SM game with the same nerf for hunters. It makes more sense there where it is not coupled with the buff for predators.
You only take a Quality Up promo when you don't want any more promos. My Master Hunter who experimentally/mistakenly took one has not had a promotion since (ie. that was in Ancient and now I'm in Information Era - on Eons)
There's plenty of ways to lose irreplaceable units by carelessness. If there is enough to be gained, you may even risk it willingly. It should never happen by "circumstances beyond one's control".
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Doesn't bother me in the least to train up such a force, and usually it can survive quite a long time - a lot longer than hunters on their own of course. And if you merge 3 cheap brutes, you're almost there - just need to upgrade once you can.
Hunting units out the gate are a lottery card. That's how they are supposed to be.
The nerf is specific to SM in that it is created not by changing their strength but by how they end up a size shift lower than the average in SM.
Often true but in the case of hunters I usually quality up as soon as possible because when they are survivable, they can quickly get back the XP to keep improving. So long as you aren't overhunting the environment.
It's not as if you can't sway the results. Whether you invest in the reliable slower and somewhat potentially less rewarding gains of buildings over investing into weaker hunters that can easily die is a player choice to measure the potential risks based on what you've seen in the area and what opportunity you have vs your alternatives. If you want to really beef up the hunting party to make it more likely for the hunters to survive is again another player choice. The more choice you have to measure your likely returns on your investments, the better. Its not like the odds themselves can't turn a surprise combat failure now and then. Things happen beyond player control all the time. The challenge is to gauge the likelihoods of your strategy to succeed. And that's going to be different for every region you find yourself in on the globe.
colonelflag
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2009
- Messages
- 115
I actually love the whole hunting sub-game ! 
In my current game I found the best strategy to be Chasers with Visibility promo's sitting atop Mtn peaks giving ample warning of any large predators approaching. I was able to do this by giving my Great Commander the Mtn Access promotion as soon as possible and essentially leaving them up there in perpetuity. I have a whole series of these Chasers spread out across about 7 nearby Mtn peaks.
In my current game I found the best strategy to be Chasers with Visibility promo's sitting atop Mtn peaks giving ample warning of any large predators approaching. I was able to do this by giving my Great Commander the Mtn Access promotion as soon as possible and essentially leaving them up there in perpetuity. I have a whole series of these Chasers spread out across about 7 nearby Mtn peaks.
Slaughter
Initiate
I have been doing some hunting now.
I have a feeling the key is having a group of 5-10 units together: Hunters, spearmen and melee warriors (Brutes/Clubmen/Macemen, etc).
The Hunter (Chasers, Trackers, etc) is there to attack animals and kill/submit them good. Its also worth giving them Hawk Eyes so they can see invisible animals.
Spearmen are suplementary hunters, they can hunt almost as good as hunter units. They are also good defensive units. Always move through defensible terrain as much as possible.
The melee warriors are there in case you run into Neanderthals and other barbarian scum. Can't hunt worth crap. Give them barb-killing promotions.
Essentially, you choose an area, go to some hills to get more sight, then you get started. Start on the human and neanderthal barbarians so you can eliminate the competition. Once the area is barbarian-free, get hunting.
1. Always send in a single unit to hunt a single animal. This is so that if the animal escapes, your other hunters and spearmen can kill them if they retreat to another square next to your stack.
2. If the animal retreats to a square close to your unit clump, send in another hunter or spearman.
3. Warriors and such are useless in hunting, unless they get some neat promotions.
4. Keep watch and make sure mean crap like neanderthals and such are not coming for you.
5. Look before you move, sometimes you can't see a unit hidden in a square but your hunters can when they move, and that get units killed.
6. Send submitted animals back to your settlements with an escort, to prevent captures. Wounded forces are good escort.
7. Don't use your hunters to fight Barbarians, unless you see some easy prey (like Neanderthal Wanderers vs Trackers).
8. If you think an area is all hunted out, move elsewhere.
9. Always have some units back home for offensive and defensive, in case neanderthals try to attack you en masse.
I have an impression hunting is kind of a luck game until you get trackers, but then again, this is my first game so I'm learning. Early on, it seems like a Hunting vs Building/Growing choice, but later on, once you get trackers, hunting is supplementary to both, but you need to strike a right balance.
I have a feeling the key is having a group of 5-10 units together: Hunters, spearmen and melee warriors (Brutes/Clubmen/Macemen, etc).
The Hunter (Chasers, Trackers, etc) is there to attack animals and kill/submit them good. Its also worth giving them Hawk Eyes so they can see invisible animals.
Spearmen are suplementary hunters, they can hunt almost as good as hunter units. They are also good defensive units. Always move through defensible terrain as much as possible.
The melee warriors are there in case you run into Neanderthals and other barbarian scum. Can't hunt worth crap. Give them barb-killing promotions.
Essentially, you choose an area, go to some hills to get more sight, then you get started. Start on the human and neanderthal barbarians so you can eliminate the competition. Once the area is barbarian-free, get hunting.
1. Always send in a single unit to hunt a single animal. This is so that if the animal escapes, your other hunters and spearmen can kill them if they retreat to another square next to your stack.
2. If the animal retreats to a square close to your unit clump, send in another hunter or spearman.
3. Warriors and such are useless in hunting, unless they get some neat promotions.
4. Keep watch and make sure mean crap like neanderthals and such are not coming for you.
5. Look before you move, sometimes you can't see a unit hidden in a square but your hunters can when they move, and that get units killed.
6. Send submitted animals back to your settlements with an escort, to prevent captures. Wounded forces are good escort.
7. Don't use your hunters to fight Barbarians, unless you see some easy prey (like Neanderthal Wanderers vs Trackers).
8. If you think an area is all hunted out, move elsewhere.
9. Always have some units back home for offensive and defensive, in case neanderthals try to attack you en masse.
I have an impression hunting is kind of a luck game until you get trackers, but then again, this is my first game so I'm learning. Early on, it seems like a Hunting vs Building/Growing choice, but later on, once you get trackers, hunting is supplementary to both, but you need to strike a right balance.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I probably go with smaller pods but yeah, this is pretty much a lot of how I go about it as well.
Slaughter
Initiate
How big? Three units? Four?
Honestly, the bigger pod is in case of neanderthals. Human barbs don't scare me, neanderthals tho...
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I usually go out with:
1-2 hunter types - usually one for vision and one for attacking though I need to attack with the vision one to build him up so the easier fights are totally his
1 anti-barb (club/spiked club/stone axe) (merged)
1 Recon
If it's a big cat or bear heavy area I add a wood spear. (merged) (or 2) I've been known to have to go out with a lot more depending on what I have to clear out of a particular area and if the beast there has been enhanced a lot by previous wins. I have also been known to have to pause and build up this force for things as large as the worst tigers and such - and against them sometimes the visibility factor makes a big difference.
Optionally I might bring a wise woman/healer as well, but mostly that's just to get a little xp on another unit whenever it helps to heal.
Said group will be one of a number of pods that cycles around the wilderness in a circular pattern and I try to build and maintain as many of these as can seem to be maintained by the spawn rate and size of the hunting range. Usually that's only about 3-4 of them on a continent I find.
1-2 hunter types - usually one for vision and one for attacking though I need to attack with the vision one to build him up so the easier fights are totally his
1 anti-barb (club/spiked club/stone axe) (merged)
1 Recon
If it's a big cat or bear heavy area I add a wood spear. (merged) (or 2) I've been known to have to go out with a lot more depending on what I have to clear out of a particular area and if the beast there has been enhanced a lot by previous wins. I have also been known to have to pause and build up this force for things as large as the worst tigers and such - and against them sometimes the visibility factor makes a big difference.
Optionally I might bring a wise woman/healer as well, but mostly that's just to get a little xp on another unit whenever it helps to heal.
Said group will be one of a number of pods that cycles around the wilderness in a circular pattern and I try to build and maintain as many of these as can seem to be maintained by the spawn rate and size of the hunting range. Usually that's only about 3-4 of them on a continent I find.
haha so I was not the only one with 9.0 str ancient era archers (merged 3x3) destroyed by invisible "predatory lone bengal tigers"
in several previous games I was adding bottleneck 1-4 promotions to hunters, and it greatly helped them against barbarians and neanderthals, sometimes they were able to take off whole stack of these units in open space, also woodsman 3 and strength 1 is awesome in prehistoric. I like neanderthal trackers created from neanderthal captives, they don't require culture built and are available much earlier than prerequisite tech
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