How do *you* survive the Barbarians?

[hbar]

So I was playing a game last night as the Elohim, and it was a constant struggle for survival. Every time I managed to claw my way to a reasonable degree of safety (read: my two cities not on the brink of annihilation), the barbarians would either get another point of strength or a new type of baddie would appear (Fire elementals? Really?)

I did what I thought I should (focus on warrior spam initially, settle on hills, etc) and managed to keep my economy afloat, alebit unimpressive, for quite a while. But by turn 200, I still only had three cities, 50 beakers per turn, and unmanageable swarms of highly promoted barbarians killing any defender that managed to gain a few levels. The map did not have any easily defendable chokepoints, and apparently the barbarians have learned to move around fortified forest hill defenders. What could I have done differently?

(Normal speed, the Emergent Elohim leader, Emperor, Erebus Continent.)

 

[Afterthought_bt]

Hard for me to help much as I always play on marathon (and also with plenty of enemy civs), but I guess I can say what I do on that speed, but because advances are slower, I don't know how much use it will be.

First thing: Remember, that barbs and beasts fight each other and only barbs enter your borders (in general). So if you're in difficulties, take out the barbs ahead of the beasts. Also, you can still expand in the midst of beasts just so long as you can get your city built - they'll leave your borders rather than attacking your new city.

I guess there are general things you can bare in mind...

It can be a very good idea to get Animal Husbandry asap, and then continue to hunting. Get your scouts capturing animals to defend for you. Spiders are really handy early on, because they can breed you extra units as well as being strong. (And the HN makes them great to interfere with enemy civs growth too ) The culture dancing bears give you is handy defensively, and they are also strong. And if you manage to nab an elephant (maybe after it's fought barbs) you have a really handy defensive unit.

What I tend to do straight off is concentrate upon getting one unit promoted. Get a warrior up to combat 2 or 3, chuck it a melee promo, and it becomes easier to beat the barbs, and once you've all the combat promos and start on first strikes you're looking pretty good. Don't be scared to sacrifice one unit to make sure of winning the fight with your best one. (And if you get a unit to 100xp find a lair to explore if at all possible to get that next level at 101xp). March is a handy promo too.

If you have a seaside capital, then you might want to quickly get to fishing, as the barbs can't raze boats - in a rough spot you can keep your units defending the city and still have money coming in to research and upgrade and food to grow your city. (Granted, I don't know how the pirates change things there, as I inadvertently switched it off on this, my first game with them available.) Plus, as barbs don't spawn in borders you're safe from that direction.

Usually you seem to have one direction in particular you get attacked from - build your improvements on the other side! Often the barbs will attack your city walls rather than traipse behind it to destroy a farm or cottage.

I always seem to have less problems than many people with barbs though, and I don't really know why... =/ How many enemy civs do you play with? It may be that because I have plenty of them, the barbs attention is drawn away from me.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

having many civs on the maps means a lot less space for the barbs to spawn, that's for sure. number of civs as a huge influence on if the barbs are a threat or a nuisance.

 

[hbar]

Yeah, that was definitely an issue this game. I did a "Play Now" game to clear my options and went with it. Also, two civs died eventually, one around turn 150 and one around turn 250. Note: No wars were declared the entire game (at least as far as I got, turn 350).

 

[arstal]

That's one problem with the barbs, the AI gets so preoccupied with them that they never declare war on anyone else. I have no fear of AI civs anymore.

 

[Neomega]

That's one problem with the barbs, the AI gets so preoccupied with them that they never declare war on anyone else. I have no fear of AI civs anymore.

AI's still declare wars. Especially if your borders touch.

 

[Smagu]

Good question.

An otherwise great effort heavily diminished by a game so weighted towards barbarians it borders on the absurd. i.e. Stags that "pillage", attack cities and spontaneously evolve, seriously?

With that said. Thanks for the incredible gift , the labor and love that went into this mod is obvious and deeply appreciated.

smagu, formerly "Oneluv"

 

[hbar]

Actually, is there a way to turn off the incremental strength gain? With Axemen spawning around turn 75 and Azer stacks at 150, I really don't think it is necessary, and would take the ridiculous edge off the barbarians.

 

[Neomega]

Are you guys actually playing through, or just seeing these barbs and thinking they are too powerful? I mean, as I played this mod I had a lot of serious misgivngs about a lot of things sephi did, but there is a method to the madness and a balance. Most spawns never attack you because of the animal war, and the barbs need to be powerful, or soon only 5 star dragons* would be dominating the wildlands. Even early powerful spawns are necessary, because of all the animals you should be capturing. Meaning, you should be using your green bucks as soon as they are healed to weaken barbs so more important units can clean up if the bucks or sabretooths fail. When they win a low odds battle, then you can begin nurture that animal as an important unit also, but the rest of them should be used like cruise missiles.

right now, it is turn 450, and Dragons are spawning with 12 str, revellers with 8, and Earth Elementals with 11. These strengths keep the barbs interesting, since as of right now, I have 4 brass dragons and one black one. I know worse is yet to come, because I saw death knight in the civilopedia.






*Carefully bringing in priests of leaves with a domination promotion means eventually, you get a dragon. Crown of command boosts these odds, and druids etc means you get a 50/50 chance.

 

[Silaor]

I'll have to agree with neomega on this one, I played a Ljos game yesterday and I really had fun with it, exploring with bucks and tigers oh my... The only thing that frustrated me was that when dragons began to pop I went straight to beastmastery but couldn't get my ranger (out there exploring and too far to be upgraded) the subdue beast because he couldn't get any more barb XP, even on 60% fights. Seems a bit unfair.

I agree that barbs should stop giving free XP, especially on 99+ odds fights, but I think where there's a risk there should be a reward too. It seems fair in a world where barbs pose this much of a threat.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

agreed, FF has a different XP system that gives diminishing XP rewards but never stops giving XP. would be great here as well, we'll see if Sephi thinks it's worth the effort

 

[Neomega]

agreed, FF has a different XP system that gives diminishing XP rewards but never stops giving XP. would be great here as well, we'll see if Sephi thinks it's worth the effort

I disagree. I like getting at least 1 xp per battle.

the subdue beast because he couldn't get any more barb XP, even on 60% fights. Seems a bit unfair.

Gotta train a new one, and use him exclusively for wars with AI's. Don't waste XP.

BTW, subdue beasts only works on drakes and other beasts, not dragons, as dragons are not beasts.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I disagree. I like getting at least 1 xp per battle.

even if it means you'll get no more XP at all after a while?

you'd still get 1 xp per battle, but then instead of getting no more you'd start getting less, depending on the difficulty of the fight. so a paladin fighting a wolf would gain less than 1, which is still better than nothing, while he would get a couple points for fighting a ranger or something.

 

[MiKa523]

Yeah, and if you like that way, go play ff

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I'd much rather have Wild Mana's Better AI than any FF feature, but that doesn't mean that I can't suggest their inclusion

 

[hbar]

An update on my difficulties with the AI. As with most things in this game, starting civ and location have a huge impact. Playing as the Elohim on a map with the default number of civs resulted in me unable to do anything but warrior spam for 100 turns. Playing as Kazahd with two close neighbors allowed me to warrior rush the Grigori, expand aggressively, and achieve dominance before turn 200.

Also, in my Elohim game, I hadn't quite realized what a drastic change Agrarianism has undergone. I strongly suggest food and hammers be changed to floats instead of ints, as I had one city that lost its city hammer and thus had no production. 0.8 >> 0

EDIT: Oh, and the only actual advice I've gotten from this thread, using hunters to capture animals, is a real lifesaver, but now it feels almost necessary. Even if I have no plans or desire to go down the recon path, I still have to grab hunting and animal husbandry every game just to survive.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Also, in my Elohim game, I hadn't quite realized what a drastic change Agrarianism has undergone. I strongly suggest food and hammers be changed to floats instead of ints, as I had one city that lost its city hammer and thus had no production. 0.8 >> 0

yeah, it also seems to me that Agrarian may have been slightly overnerfed. it could go back to +1 food per farm instead of +20% food, and keep the hammer penalty, perhaps even increase it. this way it would be a great choice for someone who's in an area with not much food, while right now it's exactly the opposite. having a way to get decent food yields when you get a start with low food is very important in FFH. this would also make aristograrian competitive with other economies but not uber, right now it feels too weak imho.

 

[Neomega]

I agree. Those who says FFH agrarianism is too powerful, play on flat maps with lots of green, me thinks. I hardly ever run it, except in the beginning. I prefer conquest overall.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

well, in base FFH it IS terrain dependant, but if you've got plenty of grassland aristograrian is uber. I do like the nerf, I just think it's been too severe right now

 

[arstal]

I turned on tamed wilderness, and that seems to have done wonders for the balance- the AI actually views the player as more of a threat then the barbs. The barbs/animals themselves are a challenge, but not so overwhelming that you have to pump out nothing but warriors first 200 turns.