How do YOU think about the lack of modding capabilities in Civ5?

[lord_graywolfe]

LOL hmmm ok maybe i wont be doing any modding at all on V and ill just slink back to IV where i kinda knew what i was doing . course i was looking around in the folders just to see what was in there and was shocked at how empty it was. couldnt find anything to mod anyway, oh well if i get bit by the mod bug again ill check the tutorials on here to figure out how to get started.

 

[Ryan F. Mercer]

I'm just play'n. Lua can be fun just dancing around on the surface. You can get a few things down in no time, I'm sure. Right now the real issue is that the documentation for CivIV modding is so much more complete. So there's a lot of hunting and disecting to get things done at the moment. But we've got a great team of modders working together and getting stuff done.

Start with the XML, it's easy and fun. Then download one of the smaller lua mods out there and just start experimenting with it. You'll get it!

 

[Mylon]

I haven't touched Civ5 in a while because it was another game and I knew the vanilla experience would be lackluster after having done a heap of modding for Civ4. And with my Civ4 modding experience, what if we took the important features of Civ5 and made a Civ4.5? Use the Civ4 engine and port strategic resources with quantities, culture adding specific plots, combat dealing limited damage, bombardment, social policies. Drawing a blank as to what other features would be relatively easy...

Civ4 could even use hexes in a roundabout means. Hexes still follow a simple number grid system, so if you remove the ability to move across one diagonal axis from each tile and alternate which diagonal axis is changed while moving horizontally or vertically then it has the same effect. Though it would look kinda weird using squares. But as hexes still don't allow a proper globe map, this feature isn't necessary.

An example of hex movement in squares:

One point of movement available:

X++
+*+
++X

Two points:

X+++X
+++++
++*++
+++++
X+++X

 

[Mylon]

Oh, even better is if someone with real programming experience were to make a mod manager for Civ4 that uses a patching system similar to what is used in Civ5. Thus instead of having to include the entire changed XML, they only need to add the parts they're changing and this program will generate the XMLs on the fly for Civ4, allowing a user to load multiple XML mods. Likewise with inserting portions of python code. DLL changes would still be a bother, as that's where the interface is.

 

[snafusmith]

I don't know anything about the Lua stuff you guys are talking about, but overall I don't see CiV as being as bad as everyone says it is. It definitely has limitations, and is no where near as easy to mod as civ4 at this point, but it'll get there.

Civ4 was easy to mod at first, but we had to wait almost half a year to be able to add new graphics (other than reskins), and the code didn't come out right away either. The lack of a separate worldbuilder caused a lot of folks back then to run back to Civ3.

CiV is just going through the same right now. Though I'd love better graphics support right now, especially since my favorite part is units, I can live with what I've got. Over the last week or so I've been remaking Blood and Iron in CiV, and it's going much faster than it ever did in CiV. True, no code mod part at this point, but that will come.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd rather have CiV as it is now, without much documentation, graphics support and access to the code than not have it. Over time we'll get all of those things. For now, I'm just happy to try out the new game and see what I can do.

 

[dudeSDCA]

Lurker and long time Civ player here...

Maybe I'm spoiled, but playing FfH, Zappara's ROM, Afforess's AND, there was such rich gameplay when it came to strategic choices, options, styles of play. And the AI became smart. Really smart. You became invested in your empire. I came back to Civ V yesterday and played for a few hours after the new patch, and still felt the gameplay was shallow.

Don't get me wrong, the graphics are great, and some of the changes were sorely needed, and thank god it uses more than 1 more, but it seemed to have lost that "on more turn" feel. Its akin from going to a quad-core 8 gb ram, 2gb video card win 7 machine to an iPad -- the iPad is prettier, more simple to use, user-friendly...but it doesn't have the same power underneath the hood.

So I'm cautiously optimistic that Firaxis will release whatever is needed to engage the modding community...I miss playing the brilliant new creations and ideas the modders come up with.

 

[deanej]

Even with civ4's issues, it was still easier to mod at release. I don't remember when 1.61 was release but I'm pretty sure it was by this point in civ4's lifespan. Plus the lack of modular loading was frendlier to larger mods. Modular loading is great for small mods but in civ5 it's become forced on everyone; at best it requires larger mods to do a lot of grunt work not required in civ4. In civ4 if someone asked for a barbones mod with everything deleted people would look at you funny. In civ5 the person that makes this will probably be a hero for the total conversion people.

 

[Ryan F. Mercer]

Modular loading is a far superior implementation who's time has not yet come. It would have been helpful if the built-in lua files were themselves more modular. Truth is, most of them are fairly ad-hoc, and look like they were thrown together hoping the modding community would clean it up. And of course we would... if we had sufficient (any!) documentation to work with. The dev team would seem to be aware that the modding community is chomping at the bit to pull out ahead of where they're ready to go. They're afraid the modding community will end up setting standards that they want to be the ones to set. That's why they tried to kill ScriptData and thus SaveUtils, but ooops! It's CRITICAL code and everyone is using it. Smooth... So instead they gimp everything, leave us in the dark, and make us wait. Not surprisingly, the bulk of the modding community can be found still toiling away on Civ4.

I think the devs are perfectly happy with this for now. I am not.

 

[Hulfgar]

I think the devs are perfectly happy with this for now. I am not.

Totally agree with that.

Civ5 is missing too much features if you compare with Civ 4.
I would bet they are planned as a DLC or expansion pack.
Why would they let us enhance the game for free when they can get money from it?

That's not that earning money with DLCs is wrong.
This is only that one of the fun in Civ is modding and that when you buy version 5 you expect it to be more beautiful and as rich as version 4!
I feel that we have been cheated this time.

 

[SamBC]

That's why they tried to kill ScriptData and thus SaveUtils, but ooops! It's CRITICAL code and everyone is using it.

To be fair, they did say that the intention was to replace it with something better (that didn't get in in time), and that they thought no-one was using it at all - which I guess is proof that they don't keep their ear to the ground over here.

 

[Ryan F. Mercer]

To be fair, they did say that the intention was to replace it with something better (that didn't get in in time), and that they thought no-one was using it at all - which I guess is proof that they don't keep their ear to the ground over here.

1.) I know for a fact that they were well informed of SaveUtils existence, importance, and wide spread use. In fact, I was told by said source that they took said actions in response to SaveUtils success. Somehow they saw that as recognition and chalked it up as a win, but I hardly see how.

2.) It's common practice to first deprecate something before removing it entirely. That gives developers time to re-implement their code under the new conventions. What is NOT common practice is to yank the rug out from under a central pillar, without notice. In fact, were it not for said source, I never would have been informed of anything at all.

3.) Unacceptable.

 

[Darkhour]

i've just started to look at CiV modding and compared to CIV modding it seems the process is more convoluted but crippled also..

I was bitterly disappointed with CIV vanilla and got into modding because it was relatively easy to mod certain things straight off the bat.. i agree that the Civ community has been spoilt with years of CIV modding to the point that people forget to compare both vanilla versions together and not the modding/expansion aspects..

but back to the point its pretty obvious that Firaxis/2k have crippled the modding capabilities to enhance DLC sales.. 6 months in and the modding capabilities for CiV should only get better one would hope.

 

[deanej]

Modular loading is a far superior implementation who's time has not yet come.

It depends on the amount of changes a mod makes. For most mods, I see your point, but for total conversion mods there should be an option to reload the files from the mod and ignore equivalent files in the base game. They'll probably have to write something like this anyways if/when they release the DLL source code.

 

[rezaf]

but back to the point its pretty obvious that Firaxis/2k have crippled the modding capabilities to enhance DLC sales..

I thought as much initially, but by now, I'm actually no longer so sure.

The amount of DLC released is so pitiful, it doesn't seem to make too much sense, barring modders access to all those systems (especially art assets) just to bring out four DLCs in half a year.
And that's extremely generous. The Babylonians were basically pre-order content, the Mongols were free ... and besides those, we only had the Spain/Inca pack and now the Polynesians. Hardly worth the hassle, imo.
_____
rezaf

 

[Darkhour]

I thought as much initially, but by now, I'm actually no longer so sure.

The amount of DLC released is so pitiful, it doesn't seem to make too much sense, barring modders access to all those systems (especially art assets) just to bring out four DLCs in half a year.
And that's extremely generous. The Babylonians were basically pre-order content, the Mongols were free ... and besides those, we only had the Spain/Inca pack and now the Polynesians. Hardly worth the hassle, imo.
_____
rezaf

maybe they hadn't anticipated the fan reception and patch issues after release which in turn dented their dlc road map?

 

[civ editor11]

If no good modding capabilities come out i will probably not get it.
I have just restarted with cIV modding so hopefully I can do somethhing there

 

[Bezhukov]

they don't know a helping hand when they see one.

Hence the lousy AI diplo.