How do you use trade routes?

[Bryan317]

I have come to the conclusion that trade routes serve one purpose... Food Routes. At least until the industrial age and then if you are one of the largest civs, switch to something else. But if you're running a small empire going for a cultural victory or something I would just continue to run food production.

Why? In the end I think this will net the best "profit" More citizens basically equals more of everything. Whatever your focus is, whether it's production or specialist, more citizens is always better. Especially at the beginning of the game when you first get caravans, the small amount of gold that can be gained by trading with another civ is simply not worth it IMO. The best choice is to go for the food production. But even as time goes on as these routes have run their full course, I find that another food production is usually the right choice. I always want more citizens. Yes you have to manage your happiness but that is another issue and can be solved. Another thing is that when you send your caravans out into the fray they could be plundered when you start entering random wars. When you keep things internal they stay safe.

Only now in my particular playthrough as I'm entering the industrial age, am I considering something else. I'm in second place and I'm huge. But nobody likes me so maybe just focusing ALL caravans on the capital is a good choice (I took Tradition) Again, this is my playthrough. If you're playing a peaceful game there may be different choices to make with the trade routes.

I'm curious what others like to do with their trade routes. I guess more importantly what do you do with them towards the beginning of the game? When it's late game caravans are easily reproduced. At the beginning when you lose one, it's kind of a big deal.

 

[Scottay]

It depends on the civ and policies. If I'm playing tradition then yeah mostly food routes to the capital so I can send the population through the roof and get all the GP. Otherwise its one or two food routes to the capital, occasionally a food route to a production focused city that isnt growing fast enough, and the rest international for gold/science, whichever is needed. Routes to CS give good quest rewards and can pump you up to ally status which can be a huge boon. And with statecraft the route returns are pretty nice as well.

 

[Grassland Farm]

When you're falling behind it's extremely important to have trade routes to winning civs so you can leech science+culture off them.

Then it's... situational, as always. More food/citizens is good but not if you don't have the infrastructure to make them useful ; Gold from external trade routes can help catch up in those buildings.

 

[cpm4001]

It varies. I just wrapped up a pretty successful game (in the last beta) as the Dutch where I just sent all my traderoutes to major civs/CSes; combined that with Statecraft (and eventually Freedom) and locked down pretty much everyone en route for a diplo victory (called the game before I got there because of a couple of annoying bribed wars, but it was going to be a victory). The major civ routes kept my science up and the giant masses of gold let me invest my way to keep my infrastructure up despite a lot of high food, low production coastal cities (especially good once I got Banks).

 

[Bryan317]

It varies. I just wrapped up a pretty successful game (in the last beta) as the Dutch where I just sent all my traderoutes to major civs/CSes; combined that with Statecraft (and eventually Freedom) and locked down pretty much everyone en route for a diplo victory (called the game before I got there because of a couple of annoying bribed wars, but it was going to be a victory). The major civ routes kept my science up and the giant masses of gold let me invest my way to keep my infrastructure up despite a lot of high food, low production coastal cities (especially good once I got Banks).

A diplomatic victory is the one victory I've never gotten. And I've been playing this game since Civ 2 lol I just always end up finding war too much fun. But I eventually want to try it. So did you have to try to make sure everybody liked you throughout the course of the game??

 

[Stalker0]

I will say difficulty is also a factor in the ITR vs ETR balance.

as difficulty increases, two things start to happen.

1) unhappiness increases. This means you cannot grow cities other than the capital continuously. Cities will grow and gain unhappiness that will severely neuter the food of a trade route.

2) ETR yield increases. As the AIs get stronger leaching from them also gets stronger. While I might get 10 ish science from them on king or emperor I’m often getting 20 science on Immortal.


so others have said it’s situational. For me I tend to run ITRs only in the early game to get my growth and infrastructure going, especially with an newly founded city. I also may do a round of ITRs to the capital to really get it pumping. But then I shift to ETRs, the science and culture leach is too important.

 

[stii]

Generally yes I run food routes. If unhappy is close then I switch some of them to production routes. I find external routes much less exciting, the money is pretty worthless. While culture/science is useful food is more flexible you can run more specialists if you want or grow cities instead if you want.

External routes are also much more likely to get pillaged.

 

[Bryan317]

Generally yes I run food routes. If unhappy is close then I switch some of them to production routes. I find external routes much less exciting, the money is pretty worthless. While culture/science is useful food is more flexible you can run more specialists if you want or grow cities instead if you want.

External routes are also much more likely to get pillaged.

I guess I have to say it... The gold value of external trade routes is simply not high enough to be worth the risk. They do become slightly more valuable later in the game because you're also getting culture or science, or let's say you want to even help spread your religion. But when I build my first caravan and I have a choice between +6 gold per turn or food production, I choose food. This will pay off much later with more citizens. It wouldn't hurt if external trade routes were just a tad more valuable.

 

[DeAnno]

Food routes are a bit worse than they look on the surface because there exist very efficient religious options for generating food, and you can only really shove so much food in your mouth at once. The nerf to Apostolic that's coming may raise the importance of multiple food routes to the capital though, it's no longer an easy pick that happens to also make your capital huge.

 

[stii]

I guess I have to say it... The gold value of external trade routes is simply not high enough to be worth the risk. They do become slightly more valuable later in the game because you're also getting culture or science, or let's say you want to even help spread your religion. But when I build my first caravan and I have a choice between +6 gold per turn or food production, I choose food. This will pay off much later with more citizens. It wouldn't hurt if external trade routes were just a tad more valuable.

It is all just a knock on from gold being devalued by selling stuff to the AI. If you try a no trading game these TR become a lot more powerful.

 

[azum4roll]

• 1-2 internal trade routes from an edge of my empire to the other, going through all the roads
• Food trade routes to tundra cities, and production trade routes to desert/island cities
• The rest are all external

 

[CrazyG]

I'm curious what others like to do with their trade routes. I guess more importantly what do you do with them towards the beginning of the game? When it's late game caravans are easily reproduced. At the beginning when you lose one, it's kind of a big deal.

I agree, I rarely do external routes in the early game because the cost to replace them is quite high. Only if I feel confident that I'll stay peaceful with a neighbor and the routes gives a lot of I'll consider it. However, I disagree that is top dog.

I think that by default for tradition (it seems like you are focusing on a tradition capital) the best trade route choice is , if it is available. I only take instead if my land is very light on it, like if I have quarries or something.

Your 7th costs more than 100, and he also eats 2 per turn. So if he is able to work an improved horse on grassland (23, a good early game tile), that's spending 100 to get 3 per turn (because he eats the two). In your capital, you also get 1/3 and 1/2 if you have tradition (but culture doesn't track decimals, so the 7th gives none, the 8th will give 1).

For comparison, a well in a 6 pop city earns 3.2 (also 1 but -1, which I think is overall a net positive) but costs only 65. So you'd get more yields back and you spend less to get it. Shrines, councils, and monuments also cost 65 and give rare yields in ,,or.

When you get to classical or medieval era buildings I think this still holds true. There are a ton of high value buildings, like baths, temples or universities, and national wonders, and getting stuff like Grand Temple or Oxford done earlier has a big impact.

The other problems with growth is on high difficulties, is an issue and the AI pays so much for luxuries that selling your last copy is often a good move. As a specific in-game example, Germany will pay me 13 for my marble. An extra citizen gives me less than 13 in value, and I'd have to spend to get that citizen. Eventually I will grow but for the early game selling the lux is clearly the better move, I'd only make an exception if I had an unusually valuable tile to grow to, such as if my pantheon was boosting a resource.

Also wonders exist and they give, by far, the most long term value of anything you can spend resources on. Or just dropping any extra or into diplo units has really high returns (remember any alliance also has 2 if you have the scrivener's office).

 

[Grassland Farm]

Oh also:
We've mentioned happiness, but mostly because Growth from Food TR == Unhappiness.
But the other side of the coin is also that when you're already running some unhappiness, especially local unhappiness in a city that you want to keep growing, External TRs help a lot to alleviate unhappiness, since the gold/science/culture alleviate the 3 related unhappiness types. Food/Production TR alleviate distress... but for the recieving city, who's usually not having problems with unhappiness.

 

[Fluffball]

What i have taken from this thread is how good a gameplay mechanic trade routes as there obviously isn't really a single meta use for them. The most interesting gameplay mechanics are usually the ones that involve choice and "depend on the situation".

They are also good for every player because they are simple on the surface so someone who doesn't like to get into min maxing can use them for an obvious simple benefit but also their small nuances also allow a min max player to really optimise them such as utiliising the trade route lengths for maximum benefit/flexibility or making sure they cross over towns/villages for added 'hidden' benefits.

 

[Tekamthi]

i tend to use as many production routes as food, though this is probably a holdover from previous eras of VP were happiness was less predictable.. sounds like i need to update my strategies, after reading through this thread

my most enjoyable moment concerning TRs in recent games came when I occupied the middle of a rather busy continent, and built a series of roads that optimized travel in such a way that almost every TR pass through my territory... after this, many of the distant nonsense war declarations against me led to instant pay outs

 

[Bryan317]

I agree, I rarely do external routes in the early game because the cost to replace them is quite high. Only if I feel confident that I'll stay peaceful with a neighbor and the routes gives a lot of I'll consider it. However, I disagree that is top dog.

I think that by default for tradition (it seems like you are focusing on a tradition capital) the best trade route choice is , if it is available. I only take instead if my land is very light on it, like if I have quarries or something.

Your 7th costs more than 100, and he also eats 2 per turn. So if he is able to work an improved horse on grassland (23, a good early game tile), that's spending 100 to get 3 per turn (because he eats the two). In your capital, you also get 1/3 and 1/2 if you have tradition (but culture doesn't track decimals, so the 7th gives none, the 8th will give 1).

For comparison, a well in a 6 pop city earns 3.2 (also 1 but -1, which I think is overall a net positive) but costs only 65. So you'd get more yields back and you spend less to get it. Shrines, councils, and monuments also cost 65 and give rare yields in ,,or.

When you get to classical or medieval era buildings I think this still holds true. There are a ton of high value buildings, like baths, temples or universities, and national wonders, and getting stuff like Grand Temple or Oxford done earlier has a big impact.

The other problems with growth is on high difficulties, is an issue and the AI pays so much for luxuries that selling your last copy is often a good move. As a specific in-game example, Germany will pay me 13 for my marble. An extra citizen gives me less than 13 in value, and I'd have to spend to get that citizen. Eventually I will grow but for the early game selling the lux is clearly the better move, I'd only make an exception if I had an unusually valuable tile to grow to, such as if my pantheon was boosting a resource.

Also wonders exist and they give, by far, the most long term value of anything you can spend resources on. Or just dropping any extra or into diplo units has really high returns (remember any alliance also has 2 if you have the scrivener's office).

Awesome post. You may convince me that food isn't top dog... But not yet. Again as many have stated here, there are circumstances and playstyles. Even as production routes became available I still considered what would I be glad I chose after 100 turns (after route ends) More citizens or more buildings/units. Well in this particular playthrough I purchased most of my units from the capital. This left many turns open where I just kept making the buildings. I'm sitting at the dawn of the industrial age with every building completed and 28 citizens. I can now easily max out all the specialists as well as producing on the land. However as a trade-off for having the highest population but only 12 cities compared to the 19 of the leader, I have had to build Public works like crazy. Basically it's playstyle and choices.

Take religion. I chose Mastery (+1 to specialist yeild) this time as my first choice. But I was thinking the whole time, how many turns were wasted on that with no specialists in use. I should have done the food bonus one (forgot name) if I did that I would have a ridiculous amount of population by now but I would be struggling even more with happiness. But then in turn food production routes wouldn't have been necessary, then hammers would be the obvious choice....

I've done this on Deity/Marathon. And I have 100% approval currently. So the happiness CAN be managed

 

[CrazyG]

Take religion. I chose Mastery (+1 to specialist yeild) this time as my first choice. But I was thinking the whole time, how many turns were wasted on that with no specialists in use. I should have done the food bonus one (forgot name) if I did that I would have a ridiculous amount of population by now but I would be struggling even more with happiness. But then in turn food production routes wouldn't have been necessary, then hammers would be the obvious choice....

I think mastery is generally speaking an amazing belief and for followers is on the weak-side. Not using any specialists as tradition sounds really odd to me. I don't know the details of your game's land or anything, but here is what I'd consider:

1. How much bigger would your capital be if you took for followers? If it's an average of 10 a turn, industrial era happens like 150~ turns after your religion is founded (that's standard speed, sorry I'm not familiar with marathon). You could check the cost of your next citizen and estimate how many extra pop you get.
2. If looking long term, like industrial era and onwards, would something like Mosques or Synagogues give more value than those extra ?
3. Would routes or other religious beliefs get you an extra wonder? How many would you trade for the Sistene Chapel (just an example)? You also deny it to an enemy.

Of course I don't know marathon too well so the differences might be due to game speed. I know there's more turns but the costs also scale, in theory the pace should be roughly equal but in practice, possibly not.

 

[Bryan317]

I think mastery is generally speaking an amazing belief and for followers is on the weak-side. Not using any specialists as tradition sounds really odd to me. I don't know the details of your game's land or anything, but here is what I'd consider:

1. How much bigger would your capital be if you took for followers? If it's an average of 10 a turn, industrial era happens like 150~ turns after your religion is founded (that's standard speed, sorry I'm not familiar with marathon). You could check the cost of your next citizen and estimate how many extra pop you get.
2. If looking long term, like industrial era and onwards, would something like Mosques or Synagogues give more value than those extra ?
3. Would routes or other religious beliefs get you an extra wonder? How many would you trade for the Sistene Chapel (just an example)? You also deny it to an enemy.

Of course I don't know marathon too well so the differences might be due to game speed. I know there's more turns but the costs also scale, in theory the pace should be roughly equal but in practice, possibly not.

As far as not using specialists, I'm only referring to the beginning of the game. I was first founder on Deity to my surprise. But I built shrine first and had access to Mt. Sinai with my second city. I decided to not immediately start using the specialists in my capital like I have in previous runs. I kept the food and production coming until I felt I was ready to start using the specialists. During that time I was wasting Mastery a bit.
This is actually my first marathon game. But I've done epic dozens of times. My opinion now is the time scaling works pretty well as you scale up with the maps. If you do epic you may find a large map more enjoyable than standard. I did huge/epic last time and thought the world was a bit too big. I could have used more time to "move units" That's essentially how the scaling works IMO. While everything scales as far as technology and policies, the units themselves still move the same amount of spaces. (More wars) I'll quote something I read on here by someone else "Scaling up to epic and marathon actually LOWERS the difficulty. The more turns you have, the more chances you have to be smarter than the AI”

 

[CrazyG]

As far as not using specialists, I'm only referring to the beginning of the game. I was first founder on Deity to my surprise. But I built shrine first and had access to Mt. Sinai with my second city. I decided to not immediately start using the specialists in my capital like I have in previous runs. I kept the food and production coming until I felt I was ready to start using the specialists. During that time I was wasting Mastery a bit.

Have you tried working a specialist (especially the artist) for 50 turns to get the great person? I find it to be very worthwhile. By the time I get my religion I'm probably working at least 2 in a tradition capital.

 

[Bryan317]

Have you tried working a specialist (especially the artist) for 50 turns to get the great person? I find it to be very worthwhile. By the time I get my religion I'm probably working at least 2 in a tradition capital.

Well I'm currently maxing them out lol I've got the capital and four major cities maxing great people. The only thing I did different this run is I didn't start using them immediately. I took tradition and the initial two free citizens and spammed three settlers in a row. I kept the capital specialist free for a while making food production so that I could eventually use them as well as work the land