How does vassalage work?
- Thread starter ecgopher
- Start date
It isn't in the unified Changelog because it isn't a CPP feature.
Delekhan
Prince
It's a Civ4DF feature, however it was overhauled and vastly improved a few versions ago.
You beat another civ into submission and demand their capitulation. If they accept, they become your vassal for a long time. A vassal comes with:
Defensive Pact
Open Borders
Access to their resources, to a degree
A portion of their national yields go to you (tribute), except for gold
You get a modest happiness bonus from them
For domination victory, their capital counts as controlled by you
You pay a certain portion of their gold maintenance costs
Overall, they control territory for you, fight in your wars, and give you tribute. In exchange, you protect them and pay a portion of their costs.
If they become more powerful and you become weaker, watch out because they can then break free.
Generally speaking making defeated civs into your vassal is a good deal UNLESS their capital is stuffed full of wonders. In that case you're better off taking their capital. Also you don't get your vassal's great works, so if you want to loot those you'll need to beat them the old fashioned way.
Vassalage can become complicated in the late eras because of tourism and ideology pressure. If they're a different ideology from you it can become a problem. If they have your ideology but have lousy culture, your enemies may be exerting a lot of ideology pressure on them and they might switch on you.
I don't know if making a civ your vassal guarantees their World Congress vote for you, but I don't think I've ever seen them vote against my proposals.
You can also make another civ into your vassal without going to war with them or defeating them if they're very weak and need protection. However peaceful vassalage is much less common.
Having vassals puts you at risk of being dragged into pointless wars, so unless you're already a warmonger or insanely powerful, you need to think twice about whether you're prepared to auto-declare war on anyone who bullies your vassal.
You beat another civ into submission and demand their capitulation. If they accept, they become your vassal for a long time. A vassal comes with:
Defensive Pact
Open Borders
Access to their resources, to a degree
A portion of their national yields go to you (tribute), except for gold
You get a modest happiness bonus from them
For domination victory, their capital counts as controlled by you
You pay a certain portion of their gold maintenance costs
Overall, they control territory for you, fight in your wars, and give you tribute. In exchange, you protect them and pay a portion of their costs.
If they become more powerful and you become weaker, watch out because they can then break free.
Generally speaking making defeated civs into your vassal is a good deal UNLESS their capital is stuffed full of wonders. In that case you're better off taking their capital. Also you don't get your vassal's great works, so if you want to loot those you'll need to beat them the old fashioned way.
Vassalage can become complicated in the late eras because of tourism and ideology pressure. If they're a different ideology from you it can become a problem. If they have your ideology but have lousy culture, your enemies may be exerting a lot of ideology pressure on them and they might switch on you.
I don't know if making a civ your vassal guarantees their World Congress vote for you, but I don't think I've ever seen them vote against my proposals.
You can also make another civ into your vassal without going to war with them or defeating them if they're very weak and need protection. However peaceful vassalage is much less common.
Having vassals puts you at risk of being dragged into pointless wars, so unless you're already a warmonger or insanely powerful, you need to think twice about whether you're prepared to auto-declare war on anyone who bullies your vassal.
Thanks for the reply. Sorry to pester with the questions below, but I'm really looking for the numbers behind vassalage. Currently, I always disable vassalage in all my games because I have no idea how to calculate whether it's better to vassal or capture a civ I'm at war with. Also, how intelligent is the AI about making that decision?
Can the Vassal declare war? Do I get dragged into those wars as well?
Does the Vassal get open borders in my territory as well, or do I just get open borders in theirs?
To what degree?
What portion, exactly? 5%? 50%?
Meaning you get a happiness bonus from having a vassal? Or you get happiness from the luxes the vassal (to a degree?) grants you? You get a portion of their local city happiness?
What about the situation where AI 1 captures AI 2's original capital, then Player vassals AI 1? Does player get both caps counted? What about the situation where a player vassals a civ that already lost its original capital, does player get no cap for dom victory?
What portion? Building maintenance costs or unit maintenance costs?
How, exactly?
Can the Vassal declare war? Do I get dragged into those wars as well?
Does the Vassal get open borders in my territory as well, or do I just get open borders in theirs?
To what degree?
What portion, exactly? 5%? 50%?
Meaning you get a happiness bonus from having a vassal? Or you get happiness from the luxes the vassal (to a degree?) grants you? You get a portion of their local city happiness?
What about the situation where AI 1 captures AI 2's original capital, then Player vassals AI 1? Does player get both caps counted? What about the situation where a player vassals a civ that already lost its original capital, does player get no cap for dom victory?
What portion? Building maintenance costs or unit maintenance costs?
How, exactly?
I don't think Vassals can actually declare wars, but other civs can (and will) declare war on your Vassals which drags you into the war.
No, they don't get open borders with you.
I think domvictory is changed from "You must control all capitals" to "You and your vassals must control all capitals"
Delekhan
Prince
Can the Vassal declare war? Do I get dragged into those wars as well?
Vassals lose the ability to initiate war, I think. But others can and will declare war on the vassal to pick on them, and that'll drag you in.
Access to their resources, to a degree
To what degree?
You can demand resources from them, and I believe that if they decline it's instant war. Although I like to squeeze them for all they've got, be careful not to abuse your vassals too much.
A portion of their national yields go to you (tribute), except for gold
What portion, exactly? 5%? 50%?
I believe it's 10% - 20%, never really looked.
Meaning you get a happiness bonus from having a vassal? Or you get happiness from the luxes the vassal (to a degree?) grants you? You get a portion of their local city happiness?
Both if you want. You get a flat (small) national happiness bonus from having them, and you can squeeze them for their luxury resources.
You pay a certain portion of their gold maintenance costs
What portion? Building maintenance costs or unit maintenance costs?
Both. If they have a big army, get ready to pony up.
If they become more powerful and you become weaker, watch out because they can then break free.
How, exactly?
If they capitulated to you in a peace deal, they can only break free if they have a certain proportion of your land, population or army, I forgot which, and doing so triggers war. If it was a voluntary peacetime vassal agreement, I think they can break free without war if they become sufficiently powerful. The tooltip in diplomacy tells you this.
Vassals lose the ability to initiate war, I think. But others can and will declare war on the vassal to pick on them, and that'll drag you in.
Access to their resources, to a degree
To what degree?
You can demand resources from them, and I believe that if they decline it's instant war. Although I like to squeeze them for all they've got, be careful not to abuse your vassals too much.
A portion of their national yields go to you (tribute), except for gold
What portion, exactly? 5%? 50%?
I believe it's 10% - 20%, never really looked.
Meaning you get a happiness bonus from having a vassal? Or you get happiness from the luxes the vassal (to a degree?) grants you? You get a portion of their local city happiness?
Both if you want. You get a flat (small) national happiness bonus from having them, and you can squeeze them for their luxury resources.
You pay a certain portion of their gold maintenance costs
What portion? Building maintenance costs or unit maintenance costs?
Both. If they have a big army, get ready to pony up.
If they become more powerful and you become weaker, watch out because they can then break free.
How, exactly?
If they capitulated to you in a peace deal, they can only break free if they have a certain proportion of your land, population or army, I forgot which, and doing so triggers war. If it was a voluntary peacetime vassal agreement, I think they can break free without war if they become sufficiently powerful. The tooltip in diplomacy tells you this.
- Vassals can't initiate war, and they can't make a separate peace without their master.
- You gain a selection of units every era (like the terracotta army bonus)
- You pay only unit maintenance (10%), not building maintenance
G
You actually fixed that? Guess I'll enable vassalage again now.
Just out of curiosity does that increase to 12.5% or 35% with the vassal tax world congress resolution?
Crimson13
Prince
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2012
- Messages
- 373
I made a topic earlier about this but I think that peaceful vassalage should be easier. It shouldn't be easy by any means but when you own half the world, have gold in the tens if not hundred of thousands, have tons of resources, and the civ you're asking says no when they only have 1 city and your territory surrounds theirs...not to mention 3 eras ahead and a score multitudes over everyone combined.
It's like "Dude, I'm asking nicely. You're not going to win this game.".
It's like "Dude, I'm asking nicely. You're not going to win this game.".
Too easy for a human to exploit, unfortunately. Coding that in requires a very specific condition, which creates a complex situation for me (how do I teach the AI to specifically know when it is a good idea?).
G
Crimson13
Prince
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2012
- Messages
- 373
Nah, it's understandable. One could put it down to pride in leaders, "My civilization may be some backwater nobody but at least we can declare war on whoever we want...even though we can't get to them due to you locking us in.".
It's just frustrating is all. I keep on upping the ante with asking, for example Sweden, and he keeps on saying no and I'm all like 'C'mon, let me lead you into glory man!'.
Strigvir
Emperor
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2013
- Messages
- 1,299
Wrong, I had my vassals make a peace with civs I was still at war.
Did you force it? Vassals won't seek it. Also, 'wrong' is insulting. How about calling it a bug?
G
You are so busy being sarcastic that you forgot to answer the question. Care to try again?
G
Delekhan
Prince
I have had zero bugs with vassals in my latest game, and I have two of them.
I only wish I could give them back some of their captured cities...
I only wish I could give them back some of their captured cities...
I know you do.
I get it, I really do, but I think it reopens the exploit loop we're trying to close with regards to cities. I tell you what - I'll make the AI heavily discount said cities, so that they're more likely to pay for them if they can afford them.
G
I know you do.
I get it, I really do, but I think it reopens the exploit loop we're trying to close with regards to cities. I tell you what - I'll make the AI heavily discount said cities, so that they're more likely to pay for them if they can afford them.
Speaking of discount, are the AI more likely to buy back cities that they founded? Because that feels like it should be a thing.
