How Fast Should an Empire Grow?

NihilZero

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The question I'm asking here is a rather abstract one, but I'm pretty sure I have a distinct weakness in my game when it comes to pacing my expansion. This is not something you always have the luxury of worrying about - on a lot of maps, you need to grab land fast before it's gone. However, on other maps, either due to easily blocked off land or isolation, you can expand at your leisure, sometimes with space for double-digit numbers of cities.

This is where I seem to get lost, and lose focus. The balancing act between developing and maturing the cities I have and expanding into new sites is difficult and complex. Firstly, how fast can I afford to expand? Should I fill up all available space as fast as possible and fall hopelessly behind in tech, trusting that the sheer quantity of land and number of cities will enable me to catch up later when the cities mature? Or at the other extreme, do I develop a few core cities to maturity, build infrastructure and only expand when my economy is robust enough to shoulder the burden of new cities without significant impact? The former approach means more mature cities at an earlier date, but risks the possibility of falling into a nasty tech hole that can be hard to get out of. The latter strategy means that we'll still be settling new cities well into the renaissance, possibly even later, by which stage the AI has empires of fully-grown cities.

How should sites be prioritised? Commerce, allowing the treasury to ultimately afford more cities sooner? Should we settle spots that are nearest sooner, trying to keep distance maintanance down, or do we get the best spots settled first without worrying about how far they are?

Usually a vague question like this can only really be answered with an example, so I've included a save of an interesting map where there is vast land to expand into. I'd be very interested to see how people approach filling up the space as efficiently as possible, the number of cities at checkpoints like1AD and 1000AD, and dates for key milestones like Civil Service and Lib. The capital site is pretty damned good with copious riverside, and we have JC, a pretty good empire builder.

 

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I'm in the same boat: I think we need a key metric -- beakers per turn? -- and a basic understanding of what drives us to expand.

I find myself playing the terrain for the most part, claiming land by (1) occupying choke-points, (2) pinning down isolated strategic resources, and/or (3) rushing military if a neighbor is too close and preventing me from taking choice land.

Then I rush to fill the "claimed land" as soon as possible, betting that the economic crash will be counterbalanced after a few centuries of heavy cottaging and growth.

Feels more like the land plays me instead of me playing the land. Feels like something is missing.
 
I'm in the same boat: I think we need a key metric -- beakers per turn? -- and a basic understanding of what drives us to expand.

I find myself playing the terrain for the most part, claiming land by (1) occupying choke-points, (2) pinning down isolated strategic resources, and/or (3) rushing military if a neighbor is too close and preventing me from taking choice land.

Then I rush to fill the "claimed land" as soon as possible, betting that the economic crash will be counterbalanced after a few centuries of heavy cottaging and growth.

Feels more like the land plays me instead of me playing the land. Feels like something is missing.

Welcome to the forums! :band:

Sorry, I don't have an easy, hard and fast guideline. It sounds like you understand the basic mechanism. Once the rush and choke points are set up, I'd probably try to get enough workers and my cities up to about happy cap and then fill in the claimed land. The AI won't settle behind you until later. If the land for a city site is really bad, you might delay settling it for longer. Maybe the AI or Barbs will put a city there you can take later.

Your last comment is probably right. The land will often dictate your play.
 
Having 10+ cities by 1 AD is a good rule of thumb.

Even if you dedicate your entire early game production to building Settlers, you probably can't get such a huge chunk of land to yourself in levels above Noble. You simply can't outproduce the AI but simple micro after a certain level.
 
Welcome to the forums! :band:

Sorry, I don't have an easy, hard and fast guideline. It sounds like you understand the basic mechanism. Once the rush and choke points are set up, I'd probably try to get enough workers and my cities up to about happy cap and then fill in the claimed land. The AI won't settle behind you until later. If the land for a city site is really bad, you might delay settling it for longer. Maybe the AI or Barbs will put a city there you can take later.

Your last comment is probably right. The land will often dictate your play.

Thanks for the welcome! Haven't smoked the cra-- er, played Civ --since Alpha Centauri ten years ago.... trying to get ready for the new one!

@Framesticker: Is ten cities still a good basic number by 1 AD if we count conquered cities instead of seeking to found all ten?

I guess what we really need to learn is "why 10?" so we can apply it generally, and know when to change that expectation depending on map size and climate.

I get a "go" vibe from this game. There should be a dan/kyu system! :D
 
10 cities by 1 AD? wohoo, that's alot. to achieve this these cities have to be in good positions so they can contribute fast regarding commerce/beakers, production...

there is no "you have to get this citycount by this date", although 6 cities is fine and should be achieved in most of the games. sometimes you get more cities, sometimes you don't, but imo 10 cities is rather unrealistic on higher difficulties on most maps.

settle 6 cities not too far away from your cap until 1 AD, all with at least one food resource, and you're set to win most of the games... ofc, sometimes you'll benefit from massive rapid expansion (REX), and if it's just for taking the land the AI will get for free otherwise ._. if the land's good it's okay to fall behind in tech. but 10 cities by 1 AD as a rule of thumb is way to much for every difficulty monarch+, at least for a beginner, ofc a immortal/deity player can get out 12 cities by 1 AD and still be okay techwise on monarch ...

still, 6 cities is a good rule of thumb. 6 good cities is all you need, no need to overexpand in weak citsites.
 
Grab really good cities/blocking cities, then backfill the rest as your commerce allows. Riverside cities will pay for themselves soon in commerce, hammer cities not so much, but they're useful for boosting worker count as well as military units.
Mediocre cities (say one food resource, no riverside), often you need a second foreign trade route before they are affordable.

Until writing, 8-10 bpt is very safe. Feel free to add cities as long as you don't drop below that.
3rd city should provide some commerce, if your first two don't (riverside, fish, cottages).
"Core cities" is a red herring. A pre-HR early commerce core city has a library, an academy, and a lot of worked cottages. A production core city doesn't need a barracks or a granary while you rapid expand. Your first great person city has a library, and 1-2 improved tiles.
What you're really asking is how much do I grow early cities beyond special tiles, and the answer is, when your commerce is too low to support expanding/when you need to build units.
 
What you're really asking is how much do I grow early cities beyond special tiles, and the answer is, when your commerce is too low to support expanding/when you need to build units.

You grow them to your happy/health cap working the best foodtiles, then continue working the tiles that provide commerce/production. That also means irrigating more than you eventually want irrigated, simply for the faster growthrate. It's also the primary reason for early granaries, HR and trading for happiness. You want to be working as many tiles as you can, not claim land that lies mostly empty for ages.

As for very early expansion, if you don't go into strike, following the above rule will pull you out of any techhole you might have dug yourself very quickly. Make sure you have writing and/or pottery before your techrate stalls though. And be careful when considering expanding happiness with HR, since that'll stall your techrate for longer if you keep at it, since a worked cottage might even make you lose money in the short run.
 
To keep yourself on pace, put down some tile notes on every city site you think you can grab, and a few more. If it's more room than you can fill before your economy dies, just try to get some key blocking cities. If there's no way to block, get the high priority sites first (iron/potential GP farm) and hope you get lucky.
 
Struggling Monarch player here so take this with a grain of salt. I see room for improvement in my own games regarding expansion.


It is very very hard to know where that sweet (ideal) rate for expansion is.
If I get early blocking cities and have peacemongers nearby I sometimes have to move the settler into position and then wait some turns before settling because I can't handle the drain. I'm sure this isn't ideal and I agonize over these situations all the time.

I think more useful is a list of recovery techniques and maybe some sort of ranking.
If I can manage a good commerce city with cottages I'll grow that city to help pay for things. Trade agreements are rarely an option because these situations develop before Currency is widely known. Religious shrines are great if you managed an early religion and can get the Great Person.

At this point I'm out of ideas and would love to hear more if others know any tricks.

I've declared war and pillaged for gold on the idea that it beats losing units to strikes. I'm sure that isn't the best strategy but desperate times require desperate measures.
 
Even if you dedicate your entire early game production to building Settlers, you probably can't get such a huge chunk of land to yourself in levels above Noble.

there is no "you have to get this citycount by this date", although 6 cities is fine and should be achieved in most of the games. sometimes you get more cities, sometimes you don't, but imo 10 cities is rather unrealistic on higher difficulties on most maps.

You gotta be kidding. As was already said, that is a good rule of thumb. Not sure about Deity, but works for every level below it. I manage to do it even @ Immortal, and I generally still struggle at this level.

Depends on map, ofcourse. I am not talking overcrowded maps. And I am talking Epic speed.
 
Spoiler :

Settling in place


AH, will mine while waiting


Size 2 settler. Embarrassingly, I forgot we're imperialistic and didn't mine the plains hill.


Worker in time for pottery. Flood plains = commerce source, filling one pre-requisite for expanding.


2 special resource second city (unfortunately one's on tundra). It gives us horses though, although our capital's border pop will also give us horses. Warrior then chariot, because barbs get fiesty once you settle your 3rd city.
Note our research is at a healthy 9


Also more growing later for some extra barb defense. Research at 9 with rounding.


Misleading screenshot, I switched to sailing then writing then bronze working, and I think I switched from a worker to a settler. Settler heading out for the cow/clams in the east with a chariot escort (missed the screenshot).
Research currently at 11.



I'm placing this "free" city for extra flood plains, most safe land is now filled, should have filled the other flood plains a little sooner. Research at 18


Finally got enough chariots to secure this city. Research at 21.


Almost have bronze working, which will let us whip libraries.


And we start academy production.

While our capital gets a fast, pre-granary library. Starting to bank gold for aesthetics


Got aesthetics easily


Obligatory alphabet trade


Almost at #1 in land, with still plenty of more land to settle. Food and GNP are good too.

 
You gotta be kidding. As was already said, that is a good rule of thumb. Not sure about Deity, but works for every level below it. I manage to do it even @ Immortal, and I generally still struggle at this level.

Depends on map, ofcourse. I am not talking overcrowded maps. And I am talking Epic speed.

10 cities/1AD by peaceful expansion is too much in most Immortal normal size maps. There are two problems: 1) some of those cities are of poor quality because there's not enough good spots and 2) you are falling behind in tech, losing an opportunity to get more quality land in renaissance war.

If you took those cities by conquer, you're of course in better shape.
 
@ Vicawoo
Spoiler :
Very nice job so far. Pretty aggressive with size 2 settler and second worker. Not worried about spawnbusting? I guess once you get horses hooked up it's not a huge concern.

Keep going, there's a ton of land out there for the taking...:goodjob:
 
I spawn busted to the side with the good land. There was a barb warrior who was conveniently spawn busting archers from my left side

Spoiler :
But the chariots (2 from the second city) did keep me safe. Once I saw charlemagne settle east of my cow city, I could recall my chariot to the west side, and I made an additional chariot in my capital.

There wasn't a great impetus to grow past size 2 before expanding, since the plains hill gave us a a warrior at size 2, and other than getting the imperialistic bonus, all our tiles are inferior to an expansion resource. Settler then growing to mines will give you more yield than growing to mines then settling.
 
i was on the same boat until i realized that there are no 'rules of thumb' for higher levels.
you can expand to huge sizes and develop your empire for a peaceful culture or space, or you can oracle-monarchy ,grow your 3-4 cities to big sizes early game to get rifles very early or you can stay with 3-4 cities whole game with liberalism-biology,national park in national epic,runaway with space race .
what do you actually want is a win and there are many (apparently) optimal paths to win.
actually , having goals for specific timeline in the game can work on immortal but on immortal+ you will have to do the logistics yourself.
 
You can simply outproduce the AI at immortal or any level below it hehe :) . No wars , just play better than them :king:
 
I spawn busted to the side with the good land. There was a barb warrior who was conveniently spawn busting archers from my left side

Spoiler :
But the chariots (2 from the second city) did keep me safe. Once I saw charlemagne settle east of my cow city, I could recall my chariot to the west side, and I made an additional chariot in my capital.

There wasn't a great impetus to grow past size 2 before expanding, since the plains hill gave us a a warrior at size 2, and other than getting the imperialistic bonus, all our tiles are inferior to an expansion resource. Settler then growing to mines will give you more yield than growing to mines then settling.

This map is cheapness, and for a change in human favor rather than AI. Maps like this should never show up under standard settings. If a good AI gets this start, add 1-2 difficulty levels. If a human gets this start, take 1 away.

There are a few arguments in favor of growing before settling:

- More scouting before 2nd city (possible aggressive block)
- More robust spawn bust since you get more units before human barbs appear (not important to you on this one)
- If there are more BFC specials on which to grow (not here)

But that's not what I care about here. This is an unorthodox map for standard, but would not be super uncommon in terms of #cities on a larger map. 1 AD plays are not interesting here. It's when normality breaks down and there are 12, 15, 20+ cities to settle (especially when one is racing the AI for them) that it becomes hard.

When you are settling a very large # of cities peacefully, what is your metric for deciding "okay, I can pay for them now"? Also, how does AI pressure change this? How would you play a great plains map with standard #'s of AI on say immortal or deity? There is absolutely no way in hell you can keep up with their expansion, so what metrics do you use in situations like that?
 
@ TMIT - It's a standard random Fractal map, not doctored in any way. It's quite an unusually easy one, I grant you, but it's a good exercise map for what I'm interested in here, which is: what is optimal expansion when there is plenty of space?

By the way, when I played this map, all the AIs but one formed a massive Buddhist block (to which the human was not invited) and got to friendly with each other, so in spite of the massive amount of land available it was quite challenging to keep apace with the collective AI tech rate (especially after hitting WFYABTA). Also, I got nearly as many cities peacefully on your IU Cathy game as I did on this map (I got 14 on Cathy, 15 on this one including barb cities).
 
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