How is Civ 5 as it has matured

Likes_Civing

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I love civ. I have them all except 3 and played 4 a ton. I got 5 and hated it. uninstalled. Tried to sell it, could not since it was a steam game.

I am just wondering how people feel about it and have the patches that I can see have come helped?

I remember a LOT of threads about how bad CIV5 was. I know I could not stand it.

I am wondering, after it seems like a few years, how the game has matured and is the consensus it is better than 4 now?

I wonder if I should try it again.
 
I certainly like it a lot. Depends on why you didn't like Vanilla Civ V though. The game is a lot deeper, the AI is better (though not enough to prevent people complaining about it), and the choices are more interesting. If you're one of those people that can't like tactical warfare and would rather derp around with stacks then you're still not going to like this game, though.
 
Well what didn't you like about it on release? That'll probably determine your views on it now.

If you inherently dislike 1UPT, want sliders back, etc you won't like Civ 5. But the game has got a lot deeper, more engaging, more strategic, more fun. The AI and diplomacy is massively improved (but still neither are great).

The consensus on the civ 5 forums seems to be that it's better than 4, I'd say, but of course the exact opposite will be true on the civ 4 forums. Personally, I prefer civ 5.
 
I think 5 has a little more variety than 4 (civics v. sopols, UAs v. leader traits. etc.) adding to replay value. Your strategies can be very different every game but in 4 I used to feel like I got stuck in a rut always choosing the same civics every game. 5 also has a nice balance between tall and wide making the decision to expand more interesting and adding another dynamic to the strategies in 5. In 4 I always felt like I had to expand as much as I could afford to and every game felt like a mad landgrab at the beginning. To be honest I hated the beginning of a new game in 4 but I like starting new games in 5.

4 had a little better diplomatic AI, you felt more like you were talking to a world leader in 4 rather than somebody playing a game. I miss vassals and the random diplomatic events (the marriages, feuds etc.)

The clincher for me is 1UPT. It just beats stacks hands down. If you like combat, 5 beats 4 no contest. Arachnofiend put it best
If you're one of those people that can't like tactical warfare and would rather derp around with stacks
I can't really put that any better way.

A minor thing is the barbarians spawning from camps is much nicer than 4's weird random spawn set up although I still miss the barbarian cities from 3.

I never liked the health system so I'm happy they dropped it in 5. It really just capped city populations based on tech levels with a few modifiers based on your location. It really was just a population limiting mechanic not an interesting system to play with imo.

Biggest improvements in G&K for me were religion and the 100hp combat. Both major improvements there. Religion in 5 is just so much more in depth and interesting than it was in 4. Espionage isn't all that interesting though. Spies in 5 are kind of limited.

BNW seems to still have some kinks to work out. There's some interesting things added with the trade system and the ideologies. I think the drawbacks are that the trade system nerfed early wars and something happened to the early AI to make them less aggressive. It's weird but you can really leave your empire unprotected for much of the early game and not have to worry about it. Tourism makes culture victories more interesting and adds to the cold war aspect of the ideologies but it kind of seems to be missing something, I'm just not sure what though. It just seems like it should do more for a civ that isn't going for a CV.

Personally I like 5 better but it just fits my playstyle better. I find that there are only a few things I miss from 4 and there's a lot of stuff in 5 that I do feel were an improvement. Some of the things people say they miss just never seemed important to me (sliders and the health mechanic being the biggest two).
 
I waited to buy Civ 5 until several patches were applied, and then tried it to see what the fuss was about. It still has key gameplay differences from 3 and 4, with the foremost being 1UPT and the absence of sliders. I enjoyed my first 7 or 8 games with Vanilla, and then I installed G&K.

Big improvement! The AI have improved, and the finer-grained combat (100 HP vs. 10HP) means there are fewer :mad: moments for me. Religion provides some interesting choices, and I like the new city-state types and quests. It is still a different game than 3 or 4, and seems (to me) to favor 4-city tall empires.

So, back to the question -- what bothered you about 5 the first time you tried it?
I'm looking forward to switching to 4 in a month or so, and actively managing an *empire* that consists of 25 or 30 cities, covering a large land mass. As much as I enjoy Civ 5, running a civ that contains only 4 or 5 cities is not really acting like a king ... more like the governor of Ohio! :lol:

I like the flexibility of civics and sliders, to stretch my governing style. In Civ 5, your social policies and religion choices are like a ratchet; once you adopt one, it's very hard to un-adopt it. Your choices are more oriented towards timing and ordering of policies, like you do with choices of techs to research.
 
As much as I enjoy Civ 5, running a civ that contains only 4 or 5 cities is not really acting like a king ... more like the governor of Ohio! :lol:


I consider one city = one kingdom of the empire. Same way as CS are not just a single city, but rather a minor state (Belgium). I never played Civ 4 but I heard about "cottages", so it was possible to grew cities from trading posts?
 
I consider one city = one kingdom of the empire. Same way as CS are not just a single city, but rather a minor state (Belgium). I never played Civ 4 but I heard about "cottages", so it was possible to grew cities from trading posts?

I think that the system was cottage -> hamlet -> village, but I'm not too sure. They wouldn't develop into cities, rather provide tile benefits, I think. I don't know if it would be a good idea to have in Civ V, although there has been some discussion.
 
The game bleed in terms of balance, there are some top tier options, like playing based on strong science (much obligued), getting some specific policies to not fall behind (tradition-patronage up to consulates, rationalism are the near-always best option), there are civs that are massively better than other whatever VC you pursue (and by game design, top tiers will have any science-boosted civ automatically), there are many choices that doesn't follow a personal style, but effectiveness... On great people, merchants are largely less useful than the others, and you will not plant merchants or ingeneers most of the time, because rushing a wonder/ getting massive gold + better relations with CS is 95% of the time the best option no matter what.

The game has lots of policies that were right on vanilla, but now seem largely useless, they didn't adjust them it. The games revolves now around ranged, then artillery then bombers, any other unit is mere support for this units. There's little use for many units just because in most cases they are just suboptimal. AI can't manage Air and Naval warfare, is just plain horrible. They manage land combat a bit better, but far from efficient. They build mindlessly, try to grab every wonder, with no global strategy but mere adaptation and build things for the sake of building, and they dont remember past actions aside from diplomacy, you you can kill entier naval fleets with a few submarines, or kill their air fleet with some AA units.

Aside from that, is a nice game.
 
I think it's improved greatly with the expansions, though I mainly credit the decline of anti-Civ5 threads with the fact that the Civ4 deadenders eventually got bored with forum trolling and (hopefully) just went back to playing the game they know and love. Most of the people with legitimate complaints in Vanilla were pleasantly surprised by the expansions or came to terms with the fact that their complaints were primarily subjective.
 
If you're one of those people that can't like tactical warfare and would rather derp around with stacks then you're still not going to like this game, though.

If you're "one of those people" that thinks that unit selection and tactical choices didn't have an enormous impact on stack combat far beyond "derping around", then you are pretty much telling us straight-up that you don't have sufficient knowledge on both games to give a fair comparison :D.

Just to give an example that has actually happened: human player invades another human player, and he has nearly 150% of his opponent's power. He has a bigger stack. 15 turns later, he has not only lost his stack, but he's dead...the weaker guy killed him. "Derp"?

The reason I didn't like V initially is that it copied all of IV's basic engine flaws and actually managed to provide a worse (IE more inputs to accomplish the same thing) interface.

V now has as much or more depth than IV, enough that I'm starting to follow it more carefully again.

I never played Civ 4 but I heard about "cottages", so it was possible to grew cities from trading posts?

No, you build cities with settlers. Cottages are trading posts that get stronger over time basically. However, they're also influenced by civic and technology, and since they produce commerce rather than gold, they're tied to the slider. Depending on where you put it and how much it's grown, the cottage-->town line could be anything from completely worthless to arguably the best non-special tile improvement in the game.

In V a lot more of the terrain --> city type specialization is actually in the buildings themselves. Buildings are very different in V and IV.

I don't know if it would be a good idea to have in Civ V, although there has been some discussion.

V has tile improvements that get better based on techs/criteria, it just doesn't have one that grows over time simply by working it independently of other factors. Would such a mechanic where the improvement is initially weaker but could become the strongest add to the gameplay? Maybe a little, but really it's just a somewhat convoluted PV consideration, and without the commerce mechanic (commerce is different from gold and science in IV, and can become either) I'm not sure what it would truly add. We can replicate PV tradeoffs in civ V quite a bit already.

Most of the people with legitimate complaints in Vanilla were pleasantly surprised by the expansions or came to terms with the fact that their complaints were primarily subjective.

I wonder. Those of us who found civ IV's wait times and engine grating certainly didn't find V's more fun to deal with. Where are all the hotkeys? Why add so much effort to queue 5 things up? Why add options like the city governor if you can't use them because they'll starve you?

For all their differences, IV and V carry more similarity than people often want to admit, and unfortunately some of the worst things about IV found their way into V (victory condition balance, civ balance, tendency towards similar openings, horrid programming for run speed, terrible UI in both games). Both games could be improved quite a bit by reducing management tedium. That's tied to both between-turn times and also the constant requirement to do mundane tasks that absolutely never vary or vary extremely rarely, which is a huge break in immersion for a strategy title.
 
I would say it has `matured` definitely. There are still some dumb things (like the Xcom units in BNW), but yes. Diplomacy is better and overall it is.
 
I don't know why people complain about things like xcom units and GDR. If you wanted to win militarily, you could have accomplished it long before these things :D. They're silly for-fun units that come way later than sensible war plans and generally won't matter much to any serious effort to win.

Even arguing start location balance would be more fruitful, though not much more ^_^.
 
I don't know why people complain about things like xcom units and GDR. If you wanted to win militarily, you could have accomplished it long before these things :D. They're silly for-fun units that come way later than sensible war plans and generally won't matter much to any serious effort to win.

Because some of us like long games because we don`t follow the win or lose victory conditions and only consider we lose if we`re utterly destroyed - and even if WE don`t make those units, the AI will.

Some of us like to play our games how we want. Not everyone does things like you. We`re all different and PLAY DIFFERENTLY. Consider that and with a little thought maybe then you`ll realise why.:D
 
I think I have to install Civ IV and play one game to compare it (both after 2 expansions). Didn't do that since I got Civ V. D:
 
Thanks for the updates. I can remember making posts about the sliders and how it didn't feel like civ.
I love tactical combat but never played enough to have war. I have a new PC coming saturday that maybe I will install it.

Dumb question, what is G&K? Is that a patch or a paid expansion kit. I love 4 and the tech race. I just for some reason didn't like 5 and the reviews when it first came out, there were some sharp opinions. I also maybe didn't have a strong enough PC to play it. i5 with a 6670 in this new rig will be more than fine.

I will have to look around more at civ 5 posts.

Thanks again, was wondering how it turned out. It seems the patches made it better, which is what was said in the first 2 weeks of the vanilla first release.
 
G&K = Gods & Kings, and was the first of the two expansion packs, the two main features being religion and espionage, plus a bunch of other balance changes (e.g. unit HP of 100 instead of 10). If you buy BNW (Brave New World), you get the content from G&K, except for the civs and scenarios. So you get religion, espionage, etc., but you don't get Boudicca or Gustavus Adolphus.
 
I didn't start playing vanilla until just before the June patch, so I never saw the AI at its worst. That being said, I really hope Firaxis learned their lesson and will have an open beta for civ6 well before release so maybe its AI will be sane upon release.

If you... want sliders back...

Blasphemy! Pull him to the ground immediately and punish him with duct tape underpants!
 
For all their differences, IV and V carry more similarity than people often want to admit, and unfortunately some of the worst things about IV found their way into V (victory condition balance, civ balance, tendency towards similar openings, horrid programming for run speed, terrible UI in both games). Both games could be improved quite a bit by reducing management tedium. That's tied to both between-turn times and also the constant requirement to do mundane tasks that absolutely never vary or vary extremely rarely, which is a huge break in immersion for a strategy title.

Phil, what's the chance you'll get back into CiV (if you haven't already)? Are the turn times still too slow for your taste? Your takes on Civ and strategy are always interesting, so it'd be awesome for you to share your take on CiV topics on PolyCast with a little more detail. :D
 
I didn't enjoy vanilla V much. I went back to IV for quite awhile. The expansions really did improve the game. I'm fickle with any game, even past Civs, and have spent more time with the expanded V than any other game in quite a awhile.
 
Ninakoru seems to have summed up the most important lessons about C5BNW. i'd also add that in general, Ancient/Classical Era warfare is highly nerfed and the game generally steers all players into late game warfare for general warfare goals (be it Domination or getting troublesome AI out).

and to rehash an earlier point, City-States have now blown up to ridiculous levels of importance, almost to the point that the best challenge is just not to play with any in the game. but if you do this, try to take Greece/Austria/Venice from AI choices in order to not render them as hosed AI's.

overall though, civ5 is definitely worth your exploration no matter what.
 
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