How is not choosing FIN not suboptimal?

[Seraiel]

Do you mean in general Seraiel? Or in the context of the Monarch/Large Inland Sea, gauntlet challenge mentioned by elitetroops where the suggested strategy was to wipe the map with Immortals->Horse Archers?

In general I would agree that Darius >> Cyrus but if trying to wipe the map with Immortals and HAs I suspect that Cyrus would be better, all economic output would go towards maintaining troops and research would be almost zero. Like I said though, I doubt I could make it work. I can see my economy buckling before I could attain domination and/or some AI teching Feudalism and bunkering down with longbows. It sounds fun nonetheless and I am going to try it right now

I ment in general.

I'm quite certain that wiping the map with Immortals / HAs is possible on Monarch (I've even heard players having done so on Deity) , but then especially, like you said, having an Economy that can support such Conquest is harder to attain, than the necessary number of troops.

That's something completely different to what I wrote though, what I wrote was, that Darius can get Cuirrassiers earlier than Cryus, and that having further advanced units is a greater advantage than having slightly higher promoted, but older units.

Though I agree that a technological lead trumps stronger unit-promos, I think you are forgetting that CHA also gives a higher happy cap early on. Since one of the main problems of the early game is happiness, it's good that you get at least one early (or two if really needed). Resource trading may solve happiness but when trade routes not yet established and resources are not yet connected/improved (due to not having calendar) at that stage, there's really not much to do to deal with it. This is especially true if you are stuck in a landmass isolated or semi-isolated.

With a higher happy cap, you can work two extra cottages in the capital, whip harder at satellite cities, or run an extra specialist without starving off the city. With CIV's nature to snowball an early advantage, those seemingly small things early is magnified through time. This is why I consider CHA being a bit better than ORG.

If your resources aren't connected because of not having Calendar, you're obviously playing a different game.

If I were you I'd reformulate the whole post, and think about what you actually wrote there, and change it as fast as possible.

 

[Pangaea]

He probably just means that there tends to be a few calendar resources, but they don't really do squat until Calendar. It can certainly be frustrating to have several calendar resources but nothing else, and thus still being stuck with a really low happiness cap until Monarchy (which I pretty much never research myself, so am at the mercy of the AI's willingness to trade it).

 

[auagxa]

If your resources aren't connected because of not having Calendar, you're obviously playing a different game.

If I were you I'd reformulate the whole post, and think about what you actually wrote there, and change it as fast as possible.

I admit that I am not a high skilled player and you are way higher in skill but that doesn't mean that you can just dismiss other's opinion like that without giving any explanation on why it is "wrong". I'm sorry but that came out a bit elitist for me (especially your pre-edited post, which I saw before replying) and I expected a better response from just merely pointing out that you forgot to take account CHA happiness. I would have no qualms if you just stated your reason on why ORG is better than CHA despite the happy cap it gave (because in your first post about it, you seemingly ignored that fact). Not every game you get tons of calendar resource (as implied by your reply) and not everyone plays Deity HoF getting good maps and immediately realizing their "error" (as you are telling me to do). That part about not teching calendar was wrong, I admit but my experiences rarely allow me to get it for trading early enough. Self-teching it doesn't appeal much if it isn't that many.

So please, state your reasons why ORG is better than CHA despite its happy bonuses like I stated my reasons and maybe I will learn something. I'm open for a discussion and that statement you gave doesn't help facilitating a healthy discussion. Not really mad but I expected something else.

 

[Seraiel]

Not your opinion is wrong, what you write is wrong, resources aren't connected by Calendar, resources are connected by Roads and Rivers. Roads and Rivers are available way earlier than calendar, so the argument of not having happyness-resources available before calendar, basically points to bad play -> bad argument.

But, what is really important, is:

In early game, one produces Settlers and Workers, and both units prevent a city from growing, so maintaining happiness is actually very simple, simply grow to size 6, 3pop-whip Settler, regrow.

Other possibility: Grow to size 4-5, 2pop-whip, regrow, if city gets too much anger, slow-produce Worker / Settler, repeat.

The deal with the from CHA and from CHA-Monuments is, that it's simply not needed early game, and later, there are several other sources giving happiness, so it's actually only a very very small benefit.

ORG isn't much better, but the discussion began with a comparison of Cyrus and Darius, and Darius is ORG + FIN, FIN being the topic of the thread, and both have in common that they enhance the economy, which is what was asked for before the talk was about a Conquest type of game.

You however seem to complete have misunderstood that, and you thinking that I could forget something like CHA giving Happiness while simultaniously being the skilled player that you talk of, doesn't make sense.

 

[rfcfanatic]

In early game, one produces Settlers and Workers, and both units prevent a city from growing, so maintaining happiness is actually very simple, simply grow to size 6, 3pop-whip Settler, regrow.

Bah! Sorry but I think that wouldn't work! Non-CHA early cities get unhappy already at pop. 5 which means they'd spend a lot of time at unhappy pop. 5 before reaching even more unhappy pop. 6. Sounds like a waste.

So yes, your second proposed strategy of 2-pop-whipping at pop. 4 would sound much more realistic. Not every start has Gold, Ivory, Fur, Gems or Silver.

 

[elitetroops]

Non-CHA early cities get unhappy already at pop. 5

Not if you keep a unit in garrison.

 

[Macksideshow]

I've played my first 2 games on the Large/Insland Sea Monarch Persian gaunlet; One with Cyrus, one with Darius. Firstly, I'm actually playing Standard size and its bigger than I expected, Large would be too big for me to try sweep with Immortals and HAs, at least for now. Biggest problem I've faced is targets are too far away.

I haven't quite got the right timings with the rush yet, I think I am rushing too hard. Current theory is 4-5 satellite established cities near my capital then whip/chop fest into Immortals. Which will be my next gameplan, I had tried a couple of other things most of them dumb lol. This is quite outside of my usual playstyle.

So far my impression is Darius is much better, FIN/ORG is a good trait combo and I think I am getting much better use from that in the initial build phase than I would get later from CHM/IMM in the war phase. I will say that the extra happy from CHM is useful though just not as much as the extra commerce from FIN.

Tech path has been (worker techs) -> writing -> maths -> currency (trade for alpha) -> Broker techs for Cash profit. This is working as intended. I am trying to build some good production cities up, both natural and whip production and that has been working, Inland Sea is a yield rich map script.

But with the distance to target and barb menace I just cant get enough Immortals on my target so far. Like I said, I think I'm rushing too much and going early. Plan is to keep the first 4 or 5 cities compact with the capital and low pop for whipping and then branch out. I really think ORG will help with distance to palace maint and well yeah my thoughts on FIN are on record.

 

[Pangaea]

I really think ORG will help with distance to palace maint and well yeah my thoughts on FIN are on record.

This is a common misconception, but Organised doesn't do jack with DISTANCE maintenance. All it does is 50% off CIVIC upkeep. ORG will still help of course, but not as much as one might think, and savings only get large with a big empire.

 

[elitetroops]

But with the distance to target and barb menace I just cant get enough Immortals on my target so far.

I think most people doing the gauntlet would play with barbs off, so if you want to compare you game to those you should turn them barbs off as well. That way you can have workers building roads through the wilderness without being worried about them getting killed. Roads are quite essential for the challenge, I think.

I haven't tried the game myself, but I looked at a finish save by lymond, conquest in 450AD with nothing but immortals and HAs. Let's just say that settling 5-6 cities and teching stuff like alpha and currency is apparently not needed to beat a large map on monarch difficulty (though I would probably not be able to do that myself)...

 

[Pangaea]

Crikey. When I hear people pulling off stuff like that, it feels like we're playing different games.

 

[Macksideshow]

This is a common misconception, but Organised doesn't do jack with DISTANCE maintenance. All it does is 50% off CIVIC upkeep. ORG will still help of course, but not as much as one might think, and savings only get large with a big empire.

I stand corrected there. Maybe FIN was making all the difference then, maybe it was a better map (I should really be comparing both leaders on the same map but they were very similar). Darius just had a much stronger economy, which, although I never made it that point, would have allowed me to keep (as opposed to raze) more enemy cities which would have allowed more whipping and chopping.

I do get the concept of sustaining an economy/army entirely from capturing cities and whipping and chopping from them which is what I think is required to wipe a map using only Immortals and HA's. When I've got it working (on other maps) it hits a brick wall as soon as the AIs get longbows. Completing a Large Inland Sea this way certainly feels like a different game to me too

I'm struggling along on Standard for now, I got a much closer target last game suited to a 3 city rush (which I messed up lol). So far I've learned that forests are the number 1 thing to look for in a starting location and I don't know why I am playing with barbs on, that's just stupid. I also don't think Immortals are that good, they certainly aren't War Chariots that's for sure.

But, on topic, I am trying to keep an open mind and will try Cyrus next game but so far this exercise has only reinforced my preference for FIN.

 

[Iranon]

I'd say that any leader without one heavy duty economy trait is suboptimal. ORG, FIN, IND, PHI are so close in power that it's down to particulars of the game or playstyle preferences (for me, ORG is the first among equals).

One is enough though, I'd be just as happy to have EXP or SPI as my second trait.