How Many Cities Should I Build for a Cultural Victory [Link]

[jaldaen]

There is a very interesting thread going on at Gamingstackexchange. I'm not a math guy, but I thought this made some great points about when to add cities when you're going for a cultural victory... or even just generally when to build cities to have the least increase in cost.

 

[KCMcG]

For a cultural victory, only build 1 city, then puppet the rest. It's impossible for a second city to produce 30% of the total cultural output of 10+ puppet cities and 5+ cultural city-states, plus the capital, especially if you capture a city that has a wonder (+100% culture output with the right SP).

Edit: Here's a quick breakdown.

Capital
1 for palace
2 for monument
3 for temple
5 for monastery
5 for opera house
5 for museum
8 for Stonehenge
4 for various wonders
+100% for hermitage
+100% for having a wonder
+33% for Sistine chapel
Total: 110 culture

Puppets
2 for monument
3 for temple
+33% for Sistine chapel
x10 for 10 cities
Total: 66.5 culture (assuming they never build opera houses, which they will eventually)

City-states
20 culture for industrial age ally
x 5 city-states on an average Standard size map
Total: 100 culture

Grand Total: 276.5 culture/turn

So a new city would have to generate 55.3 culture per turn on a standard size map in order to be a net positive

New City
2 for monument
3 for temple
5 for monastery
5 for opera house
5 for museum
+100% for a wonder
+33% for Sistine chapel
Total: 46.6 culture

Not good enough. This is also assuming you never build a landmark with your great artists which will add a total of 13.32 culture per landmark.

 

[Paeanblack]

...until the patch fixing the puppet cities costs gets rolled out.

There is no question that relying on 'free' culture from the puppets works well now, but the question will be more interesting post-patch. More cities = faster teching = better chance at key wonders & earlier culture buildings. Not expanding will not remain the dominant culture strategy.

 

[ohioastronomy]

You start losing with the second city and it just gets worse from there. It accelerates quite a bit (in the sense of getting harder) once you no longer have Wonders in every city.

I managed with 7 (non puppet) cities on Emperor, but it would have been tons faster with fewer. I'd guess 2-3 (to give you some space to build units) will probably be best for practical purposes and at higher levels.

 

[writer bacher]

Do you get culture from puppets?

The manuals states that you get research and money, which led me to believe you don't get culture.

 

[Guardian_PL]

Do you get culture from puppets?

The manuals states that you get research and money, which led me to believe you don't get culture.

Yeah, you do. That's why Songhai is so cool with their maintenance-free, 5 replacement for Temples - just puppet your continent and you can't go wrong (earning loads and loads of conquer money in the meantime ^^)

 

[}{ELL/\/()]

For a cultural victory, only build 1 city, then puppet the rest. It's impossible for a second city to produce 30% of the total cultural output of 10+ puppet cities and 5+ cultural city-states, plus the capital, especially if you capture a city that has a wonder (+100% culture output with the right SP).

Edit: Here's a quick breakdown.

Capital
1 for palace
2 for monument
3 for temple
5 for monastery
5 for opera house
5 for museum
8 for Stonehenge
4 for various wonders
+100% for hermitage
+100% for having a wonder
+33% for Sistine chapel
Total: 110 culture

Puppets
2 for monument
3 for temple
+33% for Sistine chapel
x10 for 10 cities
Total: 66.5 culture (assuming they never build opera houses, which they will eventually)

City-states
20 culture for industrial age ally
x 5 city-states on an average Standard size map
Total: 100 culture

Grand Total: 276.5 culture/turn

So a new city would have to generate 55.3 culture per turn on a standard size map in order to be a net positive

New City
2 for monument
3 for temple
5 for monastery
5 for opera house
5 for museum
+100% for a wonder
+33% for Sistine chapel
Total: 46.6 culture

Not good enough. This is also assuming you never build a landmark with your great artists which will add a total of 13.32 culture per landmark.

I think this is a simple and possibly ideal situation that you arent going to encounter in most games. The biggest thing is on higher difficulties you are going to need at least some unit production. Now on a normal speed game with 1 city you are not going to have the production to create any kind of army while building cultural buildings and the wonders you want, to say nothing of happiness buildings )also culture with policy) and money buildings. I dont know how you are puppeting 10 cities who build and spending enough money to keep 5 cultural city states allied with 1 unit producing city that also has other things to be built (Chieftain? abusing AI?). The next thing to consider is access to resources that give happiness, depending on the civ lets say an additional city nets +3 extra culture for each luxury resource it gives you. They dont even have to be additional necessarily as even duplicates and nat resources can be traded for additional happiness that you would otherwise have to find some way to pay for.

All in all I dont think the second city helps you get there faster, but done right it wont slow you down that much and gives you unit production and other benefits (more science get to your improvements faster) that help secure your civ long enough for you to win. Im in a game where I almost regret not placing another city to help unit producing abilities.

 

[budweiser]

You start losing with the second city and it just gets worse from there. It accelerates quite a bit (in the sense of getting harder) once you no longer have Wonders in every city.

I managed with 7 (non puppet) cities on Emperor, but it would have been tons faster with fewer. I'd guess 2-3 (to give you some space to build units) will probably be best for practical purposes and at higher levels.

What if, by acquiring an additional city, it allowed you to produce enough gold to afford the services of an available Cultural CS?

 

[tibbles]

I'm going to assume I cant follow that link from work, but I thought there was that other thread that showed that as long as your city can produce like > 7/3 culture you'll minimally speed up policy gain?

I've never run the math, but I have a hard time accepting that at the very least a few super cities with wonders wouldn't at least break even, if not help. Of course you want to puppet on top, regardless of number of real cities.

 

[Jharii]

I've won cultural victories with 1 city, 2 cities, 3 cities, and 6 cities.

On a side note, and I don't know if this has been posted elsewhere, but if you hit a culture level and do not adopt the policy immediately. Instead, build a city with a settler. Then adopt the policy. Your points remain where they were previously at, closer to the next level of policy advancement. You still get the policy. Pretty bad bug.