How many cities to build and when

[civvver]

I still don't know how to pace my rate of expansion. I arbitrarily build settlers and found cities when my happiness cap will allow. I don't really plan it out and I depend heavily on resources instead of building happiness buildings and then expanding. I'm not sure if this is the way to go or not. On my current huge game, epic speed I have 4 cities around turn 160. I'm building libraries and markets but not sure if I should be building colosseums and more cities instead. This particular game I'm going for desert expansion with the desert faith religion and petra.

How do you gauge expansion? As much as the happiness cap will allow? Do you try to boost that cap as much as possible?

Spoiler :

 

[marekb]

I usually build 3-4 cities (always playing standard size, standard speed) as fas as I can. Later, sometimes I build one or two more cities if I need to secure some resource. When expanding I try to keep happiness low to avoid to early golden age. However a lot depends on your play style. I prefer to build tall empire so 4 cities tradition start is usually optimal.

 

[civvver]

So on huge that's more like 6-7 cities? Do you want to get those first cities up asap then build infrastructure? Or is it a balanced approach like capital goes worker -> archer -> settler -> worker -> library -> granary/watermill/something -> settler? I'm omitting monuments since tradition will cover those.

Also I'm realizing in my game my first two cities got large very quickly. I think this is because I'm on wheaty flood plains, not because I didn't prioritize production early (I didn't prioritize it, but lacked hills and production tiles regardless). I don't think it's bad that they're size 11 now, I think it's just a byproduct of the location, but it does seem like I grew tall too quickly and not wide enough.

 

[atarihuana]

well it depends on civ, VC, map, difficulty level etc.

EDIT: have a look here. this is a strong opening strat for babylon

a few things i noticed. your second city is in an insane growth spot ,5wheat on floodplains, very nice for tall science game, it also grabbed a luxery you dindt have so its a good spot. it will eventually get enough hills for production. 3rd city is okish but will lack production. 4th city seems poor. when going tall (usually 4 citys) make sure they grab at least one unique lux. were there noo good spots north/northeast?) must be better spotws than the plain desert spot for 4th city)

you planted your academy on a lux. im pretty sure that doesnt improve the lux (so you cant sell it) try to plant it on ahex that has at least 2 food(floodplain/grassland/cow) i think i would plant it on the marsh( you need BW for that though) actually thats a bad idea, because you will beeline writing with babylon and plant the academy asap, so the riverplains near dye would be my choice

sidenote: the 2nd city is where i would plant it too, but notice that the petra is awesome here that means: settle there asap!ASAP! because you need it to grow quickly. id build stables /and stoneworks there, buy hill tiles and build mines so that once you finished NC you can beeline currency to get the OP petra

this is from my current mayan, immortal, epic, large, no ruins, rest standard game just for refrence of the extreme opposite approach

Spoiler :

with the mayan shrine replacement the pyramids(2faith,2science) you want to expand to a) ensure you get your religion up asap b) counter your lower science midgame with lots of pyramids (and Messenger of the gods)

techorder: pottery, minining,masonery, calender >construction,>theology>guilds>education

this is epic so its turn 110 on standard. im 9 turns away from education

idot silly romans attacked marrakesch and failed attacked valetta and took it. i denounced them when they did, because nobody likes when people attack CS.

somebody founded their religion really fast, a few turns after i got my pantheon.

i was only able to rushbuy one settler and it went to uluru as fast as it could, chitzen itza was settled on the only frigging gold on this continent(lucky, as it was also on my ICS grid)
uxmal was 4th city, i parked my warrior on the 1tile landbridge to stop babylonian settling. it was the only "strategically" placed city ( well almost the 2 on the west coast could have actually with minor shifting have allowed another city but i wanted my coastel citys to be better than usual ics citys because its continents)

back to the idiot rome: when they took valetta i knew a dow was coming, the ai loves to roll... sold sugar and upped my atlatlist to CB, crushed his warrior,archer, ballista spam, liberated valleta, took his gold/gpt/strategics treaty. i never take luxes, they inflate your happyness, not good. i denounced them, because hey, attila and georgy boy also denounced him and dowed him soon after ( attila ofcourse razed the city south of rome.



also i prebuild roads on non cultureborder tiles.
i got my first GP from UA at t150 and took a prophet to convert sidon, babylon, dur-k and another CS down there.

when expanding like this religion is a must, lucky i still got CB, but pagodas where gone so i took +1happy from shrines, and later went for mosques and got RT.

actually had to take meritocracy frist ( lucky i prebuild roads) because of happyness issues and somehow, i dont know how, i got a natrual GA while ICSing.... it extended beautifully into Representation, finishing of liberty for GE. i got guilds a few turns earlier and rushed machu pichu.

soon my gpt will drop (its +34 from rome peacetreaty) not sure where to take it from here
palenque actually stopped producing settlers atm to build market, libary and one settler is one turn away from settling the last ICS grid spot in northwest (southwest of furs) there is another spot on the sheep in the desert which ill grab and two more north between the CS. that would be 16 citys then. im thinking of crushing attila and burning him, hes been annoying me about what shame it is to bully weaker civs ( i stole one worker!!) while hes been at war with babylon for ages. freaking idiot.


dont try this without cerimonial burial, its rtotally OP. right now CB,+1fromshrines+meritocracy are taking care of the -3 penalty per city. ( oops actually the shrine bonus requires 3 followers per city, so it isnt active in the "low-pop" citys yet

 

[civvver]

This is abundant resources so yeah lots of them. I've seen the four city tall strat before but I wasn't sure if you needed more on huge maps.

I put the academy on the incense because I have tons of it so don't really need it improved, improved only gets you 1 gold, and it was desert for my faith bonus and I got monasteries as well for more culture. So not a good growth tile but excellent everything else. The scientist came from writing and I'm assuming you want to settle your first one since it like doubled my output at the time and bulbing is based on your science rate now so seemed small boost.

The fourth city is pretty lame but I was planning on building petra there because the middle one has so many flood plains, not using a ton of desert tiles so it seemed like it would be wasted. I ended up in a war with attila to the south though and missed out on petra because I was building units. Oh well.

Thanks for the inputs. I'm just so used to civ4 where you expand as much as your sliders will allow, sometimes even beyond that and plan a recovery with key techs. In 5 your expansion limiter is happiness so I never know when I should boost my happiness and whether to push expansion right up to the cap or not. Also 5 seems to have many more options to persue than 4 with policies, faith, keeping units built, wonders, infrastructure, settlers/workers. 4 was a little more straightforward as you didn't build faith or policies and didn't need much early infrastructure, but 5 your cities are so dependent on those building bonuses like granaries and watermills etc.

 

[atarihuana]

the point with the academy is that you get it reaaaally early, so you wantto work it really early. you also want to grow nonstop. thats why any tile with a 2 food yield should be aimed for( and why cows are awesome for academies). for a late academy, sure plant it on some worthless tile, but not for the super early babylon GS. also the petra would not be wasted. petra is awesome for hills, and turns plain desert basically into plains. i understand the reasoning but akad will have a lot easier time to build it (actually get it) than the straving desert town.

 

[civvver]

I did work it though, that spot was far from a worthless tile, but I see your point. Yeah I screwed up this game pretty badly, but still dominating everyone as it's only prince.

 

[Traejun]

I tend to get 2 additional cities up (3 total) within the first ~50 turns.... by turn 40 if possible. From there, it depends on the map size and who/how close my nearest neighbors are. Another factor is which resources they have. If it's a large map or there is an important strategic deposit (iron/horses) nearby, I'll go for the 4th city. If not, or if I'm close to someone aggressive, I'll switch to military production and grab my 4th city from that person. At that point (turn 75-100), you need to know which VC you're gunning for. That decision will determine your actions moving forward.

 

[spyroware]

I wouldn't build the cities on hills. Hills with freshwater access (where u can put farms) are simply amazing early game, while that many flood plains are an overkill.

 

[Arachnofiend]

Loving the placement of Akkad. I'd try to get Petra in there; I count five freshwater hills within range, it'll be better than your capital when you get to Civil Service.

 

[dpunk]

Afaik GP tile improvements connect resources except for GG's citadel. I usually put them on grassland, sheep, or lux.

 

[Ninakoru]

City expansion is about handling happiness and not penalizing culture too much. Early game is all about exploring, and pumping settlers, workers and military units.

Please keep in mind large and huge maps have less impact in happiness and culture penalty with each city you make.

In standard size maps is usually 3-4 cities with tradition, 5-7 with liberty. Honor is usually 2-3 + early puppets ^^. Tradition in huge is an issue, because you lose the free monument + aqueduct for the fifth city, and with no culture discount is much less attractive. I would aim for 6 cities, with focus to get the 4 first ASAP.

On the other hand, liberty on huge is much more suited, You can aim for 10-12 cities without problems. The AI in prince is tarher peacful and doesn't grod too much, so ultimately is not that of anissue.

 

[naturalbornossi]

Afaik GP tile improvements connect resources except for GG's citadel. I usually put them on grassland, sheep, or lux.

They only connect strategic resources, but no luxuries. I learned this the hard way after filing a bug about it here on the forum and was educated by some long term member.

 

[sufficiency]

Nippur's position is awful, lol.

Don't expand for the sake of expansion. Expand so it goes toward your goal.

 

[dpunk]

They only connect strategic resources, but no luxuries. I learned this the hard way after filing a bug about it here on the forum and was educated by some long term member.

Great to know, I have wondered a view times why it seemed like I wasn't getting a resource. Do you know if the GG citadel also connect strategics?

 

[The Pilgrim]

Great to know, I have wondered a view times why it seemed like I wasn't getting a resource. Do you know if the GG citadel also connect strategics?

Yes. It's a pretty common use of GG when you need to connect strategics that are close to your borders but can't be/haven't been grabbed by cultural expansion.

 

[smileyy90210]

Yes. It's a pretty common use of GG when you need to connect strategics that are close to your borders but can't be/haven't been grabbed by cultural expansion.

I think all Great Tile Improvements in G&K connect strategic resources? The idea being, you shouldn't have to lose a Great Tile Improvement if uranium happens to pop up underneath it later.

I, for one, have fond memories of visiting Washington, D.C. and seeing the fabulous Washington Monument And Uranium Mine

 

[The Pilgrim]

I think all Great Tile Improvements in G&K connect strategic resources? The idea being, you shouldn't have to lose a Great Tile Improvement if uranium happens to pop up underneath it later.

That's right. But you don't see an iron patch in 6th city ring connected by academy or landmark too often.

 

[Malgg]

I usually build 3-4 cities (always playing standard size, standard speed) as fas as I can. Later, sometimes I build one or two more cities if I need to secure some resource. When expanding I try to keep happiness low to avoid to early golden age. However a lot depends on your play style. I prefer to build tall empire so 4 cities tradition start is usually optimal.

Forgive the noob-ish question, but what is the drawback of an early game golden age?

 

[smileyy90210]

Forgive the noob-ish question, but what is the drawback of an early game golden age?

I'm not a civ expert, but I can see a couple reasons:

1. Its actually a side-effect, not a goal. If you're getting early GA's, you're not selling enough happiness resources.
2. To create a series of GAs mid/late-game, when happiness is much more available, by keeping the costs of those GAs down?