How Many Sea Beggars to take a city?

[docbud]

How many Sea Beggars (Dutch) do you think is needed to take a CS?

I have four right now, and Vatican City has a defense of 26 (it was captured by the Inca). I am building a fifth as we speak.

Earlier I wanted to send in ground troops, as I've been at war with the Inca since turn 80. I've destroyed at least 50 units of theirs, but they keep sending them. And every time I sent ground troops towards Vatican City, a half-dozen long swordsmen appear.

I've been on my heels this entire campaign, and have been not been able to do anything except play defensively. I'd wipe out a dozen of the Inca's units (swordsmen, catapaults, crossbowmen, etc, and then they'd send in another dozen of them. Turn after turn.

And I don't know if I should liberate Vatican City or take it for myself. The only thing they have is dyes (which I could steal with my Great General) and iron (of which I have none). I could use the iron for frigates...

What do you think is the best approach on this?

I am playing Prince, standard time.

Note I have 5 turns to go until I get gattling guns. I have filled out tradition in it's entirety, the entire right side of Honor, and beginning of Commerce.

And I know that folks say that total points don't count, but I'm a few hundred behind a few civs, but mostly even with most of them (I've met all of them). Am third in literacy, even though I have universities, and an observatory in Rotterdam. I'm fifth in troops (and I can only build five more).

Anyway, I'm rambling. What do you think is the best way to take Vatican City, or shouldn't I bother?

Screen shot attached:

Note: I have barracks in my cities, and Sea Beggars have coastal III upgrades.

EDIT: I moved in a Sea Beggar and this is what I will be facing (2nd pic).

 

[docbud]

Well--an invasion was a mistake

After that screen shot he rushed a half dozen musketmen!

I am now rushing artillery, and have riflemen

 

[The Pilgrim]

One. And four frigates.

Melee ships are even worse than melee units. Even sea beggars. They are good for capturing cities after frigates crushed the defense, but melee attacking just doesn't work.
Btw, stealing CS tiles with citadel upsets them. Liberate and ally.

 

[joncnunn]

On the opening screen shots:
Too many Sea Beggars; not enough Frigates.
Pre-build Frigates as the first naval ranged unit and upgrade them all.

In addition, its good to have Barracks; but in addition there should have been an armory in the city your building them so you start with 30 XP. In case of Sea Beggars that would give you starting Coastal Raider III + 2 attack; instead of just Coastal Raider III. The main advantage of the 2X attack is it comes with ability to move after melee combat. Which is really nice in constrained space; such as Vatican City.

 

[docbud]

I didn't have any iron so I could not build frigates. Thus my problem...

I ended up quitting after I finally (after 500 years) captured Vatican City. Then I was faced with infantry

I played another game as Incas and was doing well. Until, once AGAIN, I was attacked on turn 80.

Is that 80 number an apparent average for "expect to get attacked"??????

Then I met Alexander in that game (around 1500 AD) and I was denounced immediately, and he started his usual crap.

I hate to say this, but I am not longer enjoying this game. From turn 80 on I am either at war or close to it.

I applaud you guys who play at higher levels and can deal with this stuff.

I am finding it too frustrating (especially since the fall patch).

I personally am two seconds away from ramming my fist through my computer monitor...

 

[Novalia]

I find the best strat lately is to start the wars myself. Cripple your neighbors troops.. Take his newly founded cities.. March to his cap and either take it or take a peace deal. This means you'll have to build/buy a few archers and a couple of melee units early. Rush construction to upgrade to composites. Be at war fairly consistently to have super archers upgraded. Try left side of honor policy for more XP.

My point is if you're tired of being on your heals then be on the front foot. Take the fight to them. Watch them squirm because they aren't ready to fight. You'll find your biggest headache then will be managing happiness.

 

[docbud]

And these pics show my frustration. I started a new game and at turn 81 got attacked. This is crazy--at turn 81???????? And on Prince???

How in the hell can Alexander have that many units?

Oh--by the way--he wiped me out!

 

[Unresolved]

Those odds seem pretty good. It's about a 1:2 ratio of your units: his units. There's a couple things I noticed in your screenshots that might affect your combat effectiveness. First is that you settled on flat desert instead of the hill next to it. Settling on hills will give you a defensive bonus and better lines of sight for garrisoned units. Second is that your terrain is not very defense friendly. Too much flat desert, but that's not really in your control. If you kill all his melee units, then he can't take your city, no matter how many archers he has.

 

[Matthew.]

That was a nice rush by Alex I wouldn't get too annoyed, seeing the AI perform somewhat adequately is a rare thing and should be cherished

As for the beggars, they are no different than melee. If you can get a good surround and the city defense isn't too much higher than the combat strength of your units, you can brute-force it and take the city. Problem with the above screen is you only have two tiles to attack from and that just isn't going to be enough.

You could have made 3 galleass, plant them near the city, then use 2 beggars to attack the city and draw fire. The combined damage from galleass and cycling the beggars in and out would probably have been enough. The city's defense wasn't that high.

 

[The Pilgrim]

I didn't have any iron so I could not build frigates. Thus my problem...

Securing the iron is my almost number 1 priority on water heavy maps. Frigates are by far the most effective units in such games. Battleships are even better, but they are hidden too deep in the tech tree. Either settle more cities on iron or ally CS that have it.

I personally am two seconds away from ramming my fist through my computer monitor...

That happened to most of us at some point, I'm sure. Well, happened to me at least. More then once or twice or dozen of times.

I don't know when AI attacks on prince usually, but this invasion should be manageable with a little bit better positioning of your units. Click to get some perspective. And overall it's an educational watch. Time consuming, but very effective way to improve your game. You might also want to check out this channel and this one (recently MadDjinn focuses on other games, but scroll down for his Deity LP's, he has a bunch). And of course don't pass by combat related articles in War Academy including the article about Zone of Control.

You could have made 3 galleass, plant them near the city, then use 2 beggars to attack the city and draw fire. The combined damage from galleass and cycling the beggars in and out would probably have been enough. The city's defense wasn't that high.

Two crossbows, city and galleass one shot healthy sea beggar let alone galleass.

 

[Matthew.]

Two crossbows, city and galleass one shot healthy sea beggar let alone galleass.

Well I didn't expect the large group of Dutch muskets and crossbows to sit and peacefully watch the battle from afar either

My point was more at the ratio of units attacking (or in this case, the ones attacking from sea). Better to have 3 iron-less pseudo-frigates keeping the city health down while you draw fire instead of trying to snipe it with 5 sea beggars. AI targeting preference is unpredictable at times, but as long as you have units to distract the galleass should stay untouched.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Yeah, melee attacking from only two tiles won't cut it.
[rant mode]But back to our ranged vs. melee discusission: I'm just pissed that freakin' crossbows do so much damage to a frigate. Doesn't make any sense to me. [/rant mode]

 

[iconocast]

sea beggers are better used to go out and gather/pirate/capture other ships then use thos ships to take said CS

 

[JINYX]

As others have said, settling on the desert hill 1SE would have been the better option here. You would have 4 incense, 3 wheat, 1 gem, a bunch of flood plains, a great Petra location and one of the best desert folklore city locations I've seen.

On this map I see Alex is south of you and it looks like Askia is southeast. With both of them starting close it would be pertinent to get composite's online quickly to take them out, Alex loves the early rush and Askia will attack fairly quick too.

There isn't anything in the code as far as I know that dictates if an AI will DOW you. If your lands are close to theirs and you haven't focused on military then expect an attack at some point. You can get through games even at the higher levels without war. I just finished a game as Ethiopia on Emperor where I won science victory and was never at war with anyone, even city states. Given I was in a very secluded section of the map and they all spawned very close to each other which definitely helped me out, but it is possible.

Keep trying, it took me forever to beat King, best advice I've ever received is don't build any wonders, 1st game after that I won. Watch the LP Pilgrim linked, one of the best I've watched and really helped me to learn how to wage wars better. Read alot of different strategy posts and try to incorporate some of the strategies in them and just keep playing.

 

[tommynt]

you r just trying cure symptoms not the cancer with the questions you ask - load of tips and videos are around this forum and in my sig to help you boost your game to another lvl

 

[marekb]

AI frequently attack at turn 60-90 if your military is weak (or AI thinks that).

Anyway, you don't expand fast enough. You have only 2 cities in the game first game. Fact, you were blocked by Incas, but after they DOW you you should be prepared with bunch of CBs and counter-attack to take at least Cusco. I would recommend to do that fast (before t100). In the second game, at t81 you have only one city. If you are not going for OCC (and the location doesn't encourage it - lack of mountains = you cannot use Incas improvement and cannot build observatory), than at t81 you should have 3-4 cities. I have also feeling that you have not enough workers - surroundings of Rotterdam looks unimproved.

If you don't have iron, ally CS or buy iron from far away AI. Build galleass first and upgrade them later.

Try to follow precisely (building orders, tech orders) the strategy here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=468487 Unless you get very bad start, at t100 your empire will be shining and you will be far ahead (in tech and in points too). However, remember, that on Prince (even on King) AI doesn't have a lot of money so it is very probable that you need to hard build second settler in capital and perhaps delay 4th city.

A last settler will get out of the capital around turn 40-45.

It could be difficult to do that on Prince, but 10-15 turns later is ok, but you may wait with 4th city till NC is finished. Settling cities on luxuries allows you to save some turns (you can sell lux earlier, not needing to improve them). If the spot with lux is nice, settle on the top of lux.

For OCC see http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=467359

 

[docbud]

Thanks for your help guys. And I know my dessert start wasn't the greatest, and I should have settled on the hill.

I try to watch videos here and there, but those things are long.

I'm going to take a break from the game for a day or two.

My upstairs neighbors must think I'm a lunatic with the way I rant and all while playing.