How powerful are the "exploits"?

[Lily_Lancer]

T180, Mars Colony.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

The future techs are on the side of my favor. This time I only need to research 3 of them, usually I need to research all of them.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

T186, Smart Materials

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Shift to Synthetic Technocracy, for the final space race rush.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Purchase a GDR to handle to raging barbarians in Antananarivo.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Exoplanet Expedition at T189 and the rocket flies at T197, a total of 17 lasers being built.

The spacecraft follows a 1/2/4/10/18/29/42/50 trajectory.
(Sorry that I lost the autosave from T186 to T197 when testing GP costs)

A total of 115 builders being built, making the final builder cost up to 510 production each.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

It seems that I've captured 7 builders though.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Science and culture curve.

 

[lotrmith]

Not surprised that rather than a meaningful analysis on the strength of chopping, pillaging, and trading (as premised in the title) what we got was merely a humble brag display of (yet again) a cheesy domination science victory.

 

[Kwami]

Not surprised that rather than a meaningful analysis on the strength of chopping, pillaging, and trading (as premised in the title) what we got was merely a humble brag display of (yet again) a cheesy domination science victory.

I like how Lily wins his games faster than just about anyone else, despite not using a number of the game's powerful features, and instead of saying anything useful, you just complain.

I, at least, enjoyed following this thread. My science victories tend to be in the 250-260 turn range, so clearly Lily's strategy is better than mine and it's not even close. But, I prioritize aesthetics and alliances because that's just what I enjoy.

I really don't understand why some players insist that domination isn't an acceptable route to winning the game through science. Clearly, it's a good strategy.

 

[lotrmith]

I like how Lily wins his games faster than just about anyone else, despite not using a number of the game's powerful features, and instead of saying anything useful, you just complain.

I, at least, enjoyed following this thread. My science victories tend to be in the 250-260 turn range, so clearly Lily's strategy is better than mine and it's not even close. But, I prioritize aesthetics and alliances because that's just what I enjoy.

I really don't understand why some players insist that domination isn't an acceptable route to winning the game through science. Clearly, it's a good strategy.

It's a good strategy, it's strong, but it's also not accessible for everyone particularly on Deity. I don't really take issue with that, it's just not my style (nor I would wager most people's). I do consider it cheesy, but not illegitimate... I even have a domination science victory posted in the HoF board.

I would be really interested in the premise of the thread: How powerful, really, is chopping / pillaging / trading? But there's no explanation of the strategy, no advice on how to play or improve a Deity domination, no comparison to finish times with and without those things, no commentary along the way about things missed or delayed and how that may have impacted the finish time.

I think we all know the answers anyways... those things are, in fact, quite powerful.

So why the thread if not to just post screen after screen of 'look how good I'm doing even with difficult restrictions'?

This is a discussion board after all. A lot of people could learn a lot, myself included, if there was an actual discussion.

 

[GrumboMumbo]

As was previously said, it will take another couple of playthroughs of the same save (this time using all the exploits) to see how much of a difference it would make. As of now, this thread just demonstrates emphatically that Domination is the fastest way to victory against the AI (on standard speed). I do however wonder if this would be much harder and perhaps different strategies could be adopted if using Online Speed instead?

 

[Kwami]

It's a good strategy, it's strong, but it's also not accessible for everyone particularly on Deity. I don't really take issue with that, it's just not my style (nor I would wager most people's). I do consider it cheesy, but not illegitimate... I even have a domination science victory posted in the HoF board.

I would be really interested in the premise of the thread: How powerful, really, is chopping / pillaging / trading? But there's no explanation of the strategy, no advice on how to play or improve a Deity domination, no comparison to finish times with and without those things, no commentary along the way about things missed or delayed and how that may have impacted the finish time.

I think we all know the answers anyways... those things are, in fact, quite powerful.

So why the thread if not to just post screen after screen of 'look how good I'm doing even with difficult restrictions'?

This is a discussion board after all. A lot of people could learn a lot, myself included, if there was an actual discussion.

I think the point of the thread is to show that while those features are powerful, they're not that powerful. If you can win a science victory at turn ~200 with Scythia, then what do you need chops and trades for?

There were a number of comments about when Lily might have wanted to sue for peace or trade something or not be at war, so it's not as though he entirely ignored the impact of those mechanics on his game.

Anyway, nobody's stopping you from discussing and asking questions. Do you expect Lily to just talk to himself?

 

[lotrmith]

Do you expect Lily to just talk to himself?

Rather than bash I'm just going to excuse myself from this thread. Glad some people at least found the contents interesting.

Edit: Exhibits A, B, and C below.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

As was previously said, it will take another couple of playthroughs of the same save (this time using all the exploits) to see how much of a difference it would make. As of now, this thread just demonstrates emphatically that Domination is the fastest way to victory against the AI (on standard speed). I do however wonder if this would be much harder and perhaps different strategies could be adopted if using Online Speed instead?

I put the T1 save on #0, you can try it yourself.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

I like how Lily wins his games faster than just about anyone else, despite not using a number of the game's powerful features, and instead of saying anything useful, you just complain.

I, at least, enjoyed following this thread. My science victories tend to be in the 250-260 turn range, so clearly Lily's strategy is better than mine and it's not even close. But, I prioritize aesthetics and alliances because that's just what I enjoy.

I really don't understand why some players insist that domination isn't an acceptable route to winning the game through science. Clearly, it's a good strategy.

If the system randoms us a Scythia, why shall we play "peacefully" and be ignorant of the Civ-unique bonuses?

Yes it is an SV but I'm basically trying to make Civ ability make its best use. Even if I conquested some Civs, you can see that all of them are conquered by purely light cavalry. I don't even use any siege weapons/ support units.

What're those people expecting? If I play peacefully will they blame me for not using Scythia's abilities? They just wish to blame everything I say, because it comes from me and that destroys their knowledge. Maybe that's why they've played for years but still cannot win sub-200 even with those exploits. They just don't want to improve and continuously giving themselves illusions that their understandings are the best.

Chopping, harvesting, trading, pillaging, etc. are sure to be powerful

I guess with all of them the SV shall be in the T160-170 range for NFP on random maps.

Even if only chopping being allowed in the last 10 turns will bring the time of victory to T191.( I can chop the Exoplanet on T187 and chop lasers to finish the journey in 4 instead of 8 turns.)

Also, as you can see I cannot play peacefully, it is Canada who declares me at first.

 

[leandrombraz]

Denounce Wilfrid as soon as I meet him.

Also, as you can see I cannot play peacefully, it is Canada who declares me at first.

You played well, but it's undeniable that Scythia's ability helped you expand early and just have an easy game, which defeats the purpose of the thread. Considering how bad the AI is at combat, the mechanic is just as exploitable as any of the things you banned, even more if you're playing with a Civ that is pretty good at that. If you want to demonstrate that this statement is untrue:

“those who finish under xxx turns are using exploits, if you don't use exploits deity is hard”

Your argument will be more sound if you choose a Civ instead of playing random, so you can pick one that better demonstrates what you're trying to prove, that is, one that is as neutral as possible and doesn't help you exploit an AI weakness. Religious and cultural victories are equally exploitable, so a peaceful scientific victory would be a good way to defend your point.

What're those people expecting? If I play peacefully will they blame me for not using Scythia's abilities? They just wish to blame everything I say, because it comes from me and that destroys their knowledge. Maybe that's why they've played for years but still cannot win sub-200 even with those exploits. They just don't want to improve and continuously giving themselves illusions that their understandings are the best.

If I post my sub-200 games here, I'm pretty sure you would try to undermine it in the same way people are undermining yours, by pointing out things that helped me get that result. God forbid if I post another 200+ game. You're the one who keeps asserting yourself as superior, because of how early you win, and judging those who like to play longer games as if they are inferior, so don't be surprised when people are extra judgmental about your games and expect you to really show all that superiority.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

God forbid if I post another 200+ game. You're the one who keeps asserting yourself as superior, because of how early you win, and judging those who like to play longer games as if they are inferior, so don't be surprised when people are extra judgmental about your games and expect you to really show all that superiority.

If you really have incentive to learn, given you've played such long time, if you have learned sth, there shouldn't be any 200+ games, except that you're playing with very strict limitations. (besides no chop, no harvest, no pillage and no trade, you shall add further constraints)

If you still have 200+ games without constraints, maybe even with somethings that make the game much easier(such as more CSs, larger maps, etc). I'm not saying you're inferior, however I think it is justifiable that you shouldn't claim yourself "superior" and shouldn't try to promote your 200+ "strategy", at least specify that your strategy is only for newcomers and not for players with at least basic intelligence before claiming them "superior".

You're overconfident, however you don't play as well as you try to claim, and that's the thing. I never said you're inferior, but please do not try to pretend yourself "superior" if your "strategy" doesn't give a moderate result.

I don't think I'm superior, there sure to be many better players than me. I don't win all MP games and sometimes my opponent even out-tech me quite a lot.

As you can see, I never promote my strategy but rather share some results as baselines. Diplo Victory? T203. No-exploit SV? T197. These are not strategies, these are just baselines. I'm always welcome for people to use strategies to break those baselines.

The T1-save is on #0, you can try yourself.

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: This thread is not about who is superior. Please stop the sniping and stick to the techniques and game play. If you find them useful, then you have gained something. If you find them to not be useful or they ring false, then you do not need to use them. But please let us be civil to one another.