How to avoid being DoWed on Immortal?

[Fine_Distinction]

I typically play below Immortal, but when I try to play Immortal, what usually happens is that it goes well initially and then I suddenly get DoWed, often by several AIs at the same time. I am accepting all their demands, take their religion (if there is a bloc), try to avoid trading with worst enemies etc. The only thing I was not doing last game was to maintain healthy power ratios - I mean I was trying and they were improving, but they dog piled me before that.

Should I be more proactive trying to bribe AIs into fighting each other? This time I was not even an land-target (I started on another island), had their religion, no border tensions ... The only thing is I declared on another AI, but he was a heretic and seemed to be universally hated ... Also weird thing, one of the AIs declared on me and same turn attacked my stack in a newly conquered city very far away from its borders! How did they know my stack would be there? it was further from their borders than mine. Or did they plan to attack same AI/city and attacked me just accidentally because I was there? another AI DoW me same turn - does ot mean one bribed the other to do it? or just a coincidence?

 

[sampsa]

Easiest way is city gifting. +4 immediate fair trade, +1 liberation if close enough to their capital. I pay close to zero attention to power ratio. Watch out for WHEOOHRN (red fist, assuming you use BUG/BUFFY) and you'll have enough time to prepare.

It sounds like you probably got bribed on. Something you can prevent with begging a small amount of , though it requires the AI to be at least pleased.

 

[Fippy]

If you are at war, chances that others start plotting on you increase by a lot (and bribes become much cheaper).
By how much can be illustrated with a little test example..let's say they want an expensive tech like education + music for being bribed on an AI at peace, after i declare first they now join for just music

Which AIs you have in the game also matters (and Civ Illustrated by Kaitzilla helps).
De Gaulle:
Can plot war at pleased: Nope
Can be bribed to war against AI: Pleased (If he is pleased or lower with target AI)

So you would be safe from him plotting at pleased, but he could still be bribed on you by others who he's pleased with as well.
Only friendly gives full protection from bribes (or 10t enforced peace as Sampsa mentioned).

Lizzy:
Can plot war at pleased: Yes
Can be bribed to war against AI: Friendly (If she is cautious or lower with target AI)

Lizzy could in theory plot on you at pleased (but she's overall very peaceful and chances are low).
She can only be bribed by those she's friendly with, and not against those she likes (pleased).
So ironically you are safe from bribes with her at pleased - but not from regular DoWs

 

[AcaMetis]

RE:

Also weird thing, one of the AIs declared on me and same turn attacked my stack in a newly conquered city very far away from its borders! How did they know my stack would be there? it was further from their borders than mine. Or did they plan to attack same AI/city and attacked me just accidentally because I was there?

What most likely happened is that the AI in question was plotting on you, and when you captured a city on the same landmass they were on their army could suddenly find a path to one of "your" cities, and marched over to attack. As for how the AI knew you took that city I'm not sure, the most likely answer is AI handicap shenaniganry. But practically speaking a player in the same situation could easily intuit that if an AI city was captured (which will be reported by the event log if the city is revealed on the map) it either must have been taken by the only other person at war with the AI, or was most likely taken by the closest civ who recently DoWed the AI.

 

[Gumbolt]

Try working on diplo much earlier. Gifting spare resources.Shared open borders. Look at shared civic bonuses. If you are having to gift cities then you are doing something wrong. Avoid adopting religions that no one has. Religions often cause the most upset. That and shared borders.

If an AI stack is building up on your border it's usually an indication they might dow. Even on Immortal beofre 1ad they usually don't have huge stacks.

Have a look at know your enemy thread.

Civ Illustrated #1 (Know Your Enemy)

Click on the leader link below to view their strategy article :king: Alexander Asoka Augustus Caesar Bismarck Boudica Brennus Catherine Charlemagne Churchill Cyrus Darius De Gaulle Elizabeth Frederick Gandhi Genghis Khan Gilgamesh Hammurabi Hannibal Hatshepsut Huayna Capac...

forums.civfanatics.com

 

[Fine_Distinction]

Thank you all @sampsa, @Fippy, @AcaMetis, @Gumbolt - great points.

I thought I did everything but I forgot about begging . I had no spare resources to give, and also no spare cities or cities to give anyway - they would not accept a city on my continent, and theirs was fully settled. In the hindsight, I should give them the city, maybe after whipping, it was any suffocated by culture on all sights. And anyway I wanted another city with GLH, the first one I attacked was because of easy logistics. And AI who declared on me and send a tremendous SoD was pleased with me, but capable of plotting at pleased

Is begging working also when they started plotting?

 

[AcaMetis]

If you beg for a 10 turn peace treaty an AI may, but is not guaranteed, to stop plotting on you. If they don't they'll declare once the ten turn forced peace is over

 

[Gumbolt]

Save?

 

[Fine_Distinction]

Save?

I am a Mac player, and it is also not have been just one game, but rather a typical development for me on Immortal But great point about begging, I will try it in the future. I begged about everything - techs, resources, 0 successes, but 1 should be much easier . and I am glad I did not abandon the game, as I initially wanted, just continued to play, and manage to dodge the dog piled live another day . So specific saves from that time are gone now, but generally other than begging I think I was doing diplo right - no religion unless AI asked me to adapt it and almost everybody has it, very careful not to trade with worse enemies etc and generally careful trading. I did not appreciate tough that even attacking an universally hated heretic can get me "you attack our friend!" demerit . And of course "this war spoils our relationship" when it is them who attack you and they refuse to talk is weird - but so is life ...

 

[Fippy]

Sometimes it's better to make a few really good friends
Just as life you could say yup. Usually i only really care about close border AIs.
Checking who has open borders with who can also help..if an annoyed AI cannot get thru another one and reach me they are not a diplo priority.

 

[Fine_Distinction]

Sometimes it's better to make a few really good friends
Just as life you could say yup. Usually i only really care about close border AIs.
Checking who has open borders with who can also help..if an annoyed AI cannot get thru another one and reach me they are not a diplo priority.

Yeah, I am learning not to trade with everybody, seems to be helping at higher levels.

By "really caring about close borders AIs" you mean don't care if somebody hates you but cannot reach you? it is also super annoying to have a close-border AI next to you, blocking almost all your best foreign routes ...

I still do not understand exactly how this mechanics is working, I think it once happened that my civ had a U-shape with one closed-borders AI in the bottom of the U and my open-border friend at the top, and I was no getting trade routes with that AI, with whom my borders were literary touching, I think because the AI on the inside of the circle we were forming was somehow blocking it?

I don't have screenshot either, but it was really strange ...

Or could it be a unit, especially naval, of another civ I was at war with cutting off the trade routes in spite of borders touching?

 

[Fippy]

Well i won't think twice about making a good tech trade i.e. with an AI that's worst enemy of another AI far away.

Hmm no idea..are you sure there was a road connection (or river) ?
Only privateers can block traderoutes, but nothing on land i think.

 

[Fine_Distinction]

Well i won't think twice about making a good tech trade i.e. with an AI that's worst enemy of another AI far away.

I was mostly thinking who would be a good, trading partner and friend long-term (eg likes civics I plan to run anyway and is likely to get them/adopt them soon) but it is also a very good point that it does not matter if they are p****d off it the cannot reach me However, AI opening borders seems a bit mysterious to me, Toku seemed to be tough one to open borders with, I remember people even giving his a city just to open borders. But in a recent game, he become pleased with me very soon. just because he apparently like a lot tech I traded him.

The weird thing with trade routes was I was on another continent than AI but our borders were touching and I had astro anyway. Nobody had privateer at the time, I had another city on the continent with that AI but land trade-routes were blocked by another AI in between that had closed borders (or war?) with me. I was also at war with at least one more AI whose units were wandering on land and sea - so I thought there may be somehow cutting trade routes? barbs were far away.

Ah, and the reason I thought trade routes were not working was I was getting mostly domestic trade routes and not due to any civics I ran. When I finally got the AI in between to open borders got some international trade routes but still relatively few. But basically it looked like trade routes on land are somehow better even though our borders touched over water. Is that explained somewhere? Or am I misinterpreting/missing something?

 

[Fippy]

Gifting a city gives +4 (and maybe +1 for liberation if close enuf to them), but you can also get +4 fair trade via other gifts (techs or just very favorable trades for them).
Toku starts with -2 first impression so if you do just one thing he doesn't like (wrong religion etc) it's still not enuf
Worth mentioning that when you first meet an AI, +4 fair trade happens even on small gifts. As time passes you need bigger ones.

Oh okay..other continent.
Units we can rule out, there are some other maybes..mercantalism on that AI?
Or maybe you just saw the borders of some or their island cities? Even with Astro you need a visible path towards their main continent.

 

[Fine_Distinction]

Gifting a city gives +4 (and maybe +1 for liberation if close enuf to them), but you can also get +4 fair trade via other gifts (techs or just very favorable trades for them).
Toku starts with -2 first impression so if you do just one thing he doesn't like (wrong religion etc) it's still not enuf
Worth mentioning that when you first meet an AI, +4 fair trade happens even on small gifts. As time passes you need bigger ones.

Oh okay..other continent.
Units we can rule out, there are some other maybes..mercantalism on that AI?
Or maybe you just saw the borders of some or their island cities? Even with Astro you need a visible path towards their main continent.

Yeah, I am beggining to think, maybe the other AI was running mercantilism? I definitely was not. Will AI running mercantilism between me and another AI - when we all have open borders - would also block trade routes, as is borders were closed?

 

[Fippy]

Will AI running mercantilism between me and another AI - when we all have open borders - would also block trade routes, as is borders were closed?

Nope

 

[Fine_Distinction]

Nope

All AIs but one were running mercantilism and they switched probably around the time I started the war so hence my confusion. And I had GLH and much more cities than non-merc AI that is why foreign TR seemed like drop in a bucket