How to Fix Tech Trading

[sir_schwick]

Currently you trade for a tech and you can use it instantly. Two players working in tandem could could hundreds of turns of research in less then a hundred turns. This is both unrealistic and unbalancing. Here is a system that would still allow technology exchange, but not allow someone to go from Stone age to Information Age in one turn. This is very similair and based on the tech trading concept from C-evo.

The cost of researching a tech can be reduced via several methods.
- by 25% if aquired from the Great Library
- by 25% if aquired from a captured city or stolen
- by 50% if aquired via diplomacy
- by an additional 25% if aquired via either of these methods and you have the prequesites

This means that traded techs will cost 75% if you take the time to research prequesites, or trade and research those. Overall you can still reduce research time alot, but must invest in that research.

 

[Sirian]

Tech trading opens gaping holes in the game balance. I'm not sure you've found the best solution, but I agree with your diagnosis of the problem. Here is hoping they do something to fix it.

- Sirian

 

[dh_epic]

This is an interesting proposition, that you don't just purchase the whole tech, but you purchase a "portion" of the techs.

It also prevents the invisible cost calculations when you try tech trading with an AI who's already half-way there.

 

[Dragonsbain]

why not get the whole tech and have a time delay on it depending on your curent tech level, delay growing with # o tech and age deference compared to your curent level.

1 tech away = 1 turn delay
2 tech away = 2 turn delay
3 tech away = 3 turn delay
3 tech away but in an other age would be 2 turns away then *2 because of new age +1 turn delay gives: (2*2)+1= 5 turn delay.

This would make trading techs posible but the further the tech is from your tech level the longer it takes to take affect.

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

Sir Schwick, took me a minute to get what you said, but now I see that it is a really good idea. Something really needs to be done about tech trading and you've come up with a good idea. I don't think you should be able to get a tech without knowing the prerequisites though.

Dragonsbain, I'm not sure if time delays are what should be done. You'd normally expect the tech to come in an instant.

 

[Xanthippus]

This is an interesting proposition, that you don't just purchase the whole tech, but you purchase a "portion" of the techs.

It also prevents the invisible cost calculations when you try tech trading with an AI who's already half-way there.

I don't think it should be seen as purchasing a "portion" of the tech... that's rather unrealistic. You can't just say, "ok, I'll give you the pistons and the oil, now you have to figure out how to make the rest of the engine". Instead, it should be seen as purchasing the WHOLE tech, but you have to take time to reverse engineer it and understand it yourself.

This makes complete sense to me. The way it is done in Victoria: An Empire Under the Sun is that after having traded for a tech, you take a hit to your science points, most often going into the negatives. You have to get it back up to 0 before you can start researching again; this is representative of the time taken to reverse engineer.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

At the risk of 'pushing my own barrow' I think this is, on the surface, a truly great idea-and I think that this would work brilliantly within a 'semi-blind' research system, like the one I have been pushing.
For example, lets say that you are heavily invested in industrial tech research, and you have a roughly equal chance of acquiring either masonry or Iron working. You capture the city of a rival civ that has already discovered Masonry, which means that the chance of acquiring Masonry first has just increased (by, say, the 25% mentioned by Sir_Schwick). A few turns later, you acquire the iron working tech from a friendly civ, and now your chances of getting iron working first have become MUCH better than Masonry (by a net total of 25%!) If you have both prerequisites for masonry, but not Iron working, then the chances might become even again once more!!
Hmmm, I'm not sure if capturing a city should work the way Sir_Schwick mentioned, but perhaps should boost ALL your current tech research efforts in proportion to the allocations of the previous city's owner (so, for instance, if the civ had a 40% allocation to 'pure science' techs, then your own pure science 'beaker total' will increase by 40%-if that makes sense?
Of course, cultural techs should be easier to get if you are trading with civs who already have the tech in question-perhaps by 10% for every civ you trade with who has it!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Xanthippus]

At the risk of 'pushing my own barrow' I think this is, on the surface, a truly great idea-and I think that this would work brilliantly within a 'semi-blind' research system, like the one I have been pushing.
For example, lets say that you are heavily invested in industrial tech research, and you have a roughly equal chance of acquiring either masonry or Iron working. You capture the city of a rival civ that has already discovered Masonry, which means that the chance of acquiring Masonry first has just increased (by, say, the 25% mentioned by Sir_Schwick). A few turns later, you acquire the iron working tech from a friendly civ, and now your chances of getting iron working first have become MUCH better than Masonry (by a net total of 25%!) If you have both prerequisites for masonry, but not Iron working, then the chances might become even again once more!!
Hmmm, I'm not sure if capturing a city should work the way Sir_Schwick mentioned, but perhaps should boost ALL your current tech research efforts in proportion to the allocations of the previous city's owner (so, for instance, if the civ had a 40% allocation to 'pure science' techs, then your own pure science 'beaker total' will increase by 40%-if that makes sense?
Of course, cultural techs should be easier to get if you are trading with civs who already have the tech in question-perhaps by 10% for every civ you trade with who has it!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

That's an excellent idea actually. I liked the way in Alpha Centauri you could choose to have blind research. Choosing what area you want your scientists to focus on is realistic. Telling them to research something you've got no concept of yet isn't. It would also prevent bee-lining, which is a bit exploitative if you ask me. Anyway, I completely agree with what you expressed there.

 

[Dragonsbain]

I don't think it should be seen as purchasing a "portion" of the tech... that's rather unrealistic. You can't just say, "ok, I'll give you the pistons and the oil, now you have to figure out how to make the rest of the engine". Instead, it should be seen as purchasing the WHOLE tech, but you have to take time to reverse engineer it and understand it yourself.

This makes complete sense to me. The way it is done in Victoria: An Empire Under the Sun is that after having traded for a tech, you take a hit to your science points, most often going into the negatives. You have to get it back up to 0 before you can start researching again; this is representative of the time taken to reverse engineer.

thats why I thought of the delay.

At the risk of 'pushing my own barrow' I think this is, on the surface, a truly great idea-and I think that this would work brilliantly within a 'semi-blind' research system, like the one I have been pushing.
For example, lets say that you are heavily invested in industrial tech research, and you have a roughly equal chance of acquiring either masonry or Iron working. You capture the city of a rival civ that has already discovered Masonry, which means that the chance of acquiring Masonry first has just increased (by, say, the 25% mentioned by Sir_Schwick). A few turns later, you acquire the iron working tech from a friendly civ, and now your chances of getting iron working first have become MUCH better than Masonry (by a net total of 25%!) If you have both prerequisites for masonry, but not Iron working, then the chances might become even again once more!!
Hmmm, I'm not sure if capturing a city should work the way Sir_Schwick mentioned, but perhaps should boost ALL your current tech research efforts in proportion to the allocations of the previous city's owner (so, for instance, if the civ had a 40% allocation to 'pure science' techs, then your own pure science 'beaker total' will increase by 40%-if that makes sense?
Of course, cultural techs should be easier to get if you are trading with civs who already have the tech in question-perhaps by 10% for every civ you trade with who has it!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker..

like the idea but something should set apart every civ.
what I mean is if a civ is sientific it should get a bonus on whatever they are recearching at that time, militaristic would be more likely to discover a tech like worior code than pottery and so on and so on....

 

[dh_epic]

Yeah, of course you're not "purchasing a portion". Instead, you're getting the scientific aid of another nation, but it requires cooperation with your scientists -- they still need to do some work. It's not a hand-out, but a hand-up.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, Dragonsbain, I have suggested in previous posts that your civ characteristics affect which tech fields they are NATURALLY best at.
Scientific civs are a special case, as they are best at 'pure science' techs AND they get a bonus to the beakers produced by ALL research infrastructure-thus giving them more beakers per turn to invest in ALL fields!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.