how to improve the seas...

kenken244

Grammar Nazi
Joined
Feb 26, 2007
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Grammar Nazi Conclave
I’ve always thought that naval combat was really bland- especially compared to all the stuff that happens on land. So I’ve come up with several suggestions so maybe people could enjoy water maps more


Suggestion number 1: ship upgrading.
Spoiler :
Currently the only sort of upgrade for your ship is the expanded hull promotion witch is somehow “learned” with experience, so a ship is out on the high seas in the middle of nowhere and suddenly it “learns” a bigger hull. Firstly this is illogical and secondly it is quite strange that the only improvements to a ship are having a bigger hull. So I propose this:

The shipyard will no longer provide experience for new ships. Instead, the shipyard will provide a random ship upgrade for free and allow ships in that city to buy ship upgrades with gold ( the prices will increase the more upgrades it has)
Some possible upgrades are

Improved sails: +1 movement

Cannons: requires gunpowder, iron and blasting powder tech: - 1 crew capacity, + 2 strength adds to city bombardment capabilities.
A cannon can be fired at adjacent ships to deal some damage to the ship but it gets the “casted” promo so it cant attack and it gets about 2 negative first strikes while the crew re loads them
It can also be upgraded to have different effects (yes the ideas are from “pirates!”)
Grapeshot: deals damage to the units on board and has a chance of removing the crew promotion
Chain shot: unit loses a few points of movement for a few turns


Rowboats: the ship can use the “deploy rowboat” ability witch will make a 0 strength medium movement and 1 cargo capacity rowboat unit that will disappear after 2 turns and is invisible during the first turn. The purpose of this is to allow a unit to disembark from a transport while the rest of the units go elsewhere without having to risk the main ship being detected or wasting movement and it can be used to transport one unit from one ship to another. Also, if the ship is sunk there is a 75% chance for each unit that a rowboat will appear and it will automatically be loaded into it instead of dieing instantly

Streamlined hull: not allowed with expanded hull, gives the ship + 20% withdrawal

Greek fire (or a more appropriate fantasy type name): the ship gains a first strike that will deal 1 -3 fire damage in addition to the normal damage ( ships should be weak to fire but water creatures shouldn’t)


Suggestion number 2: sea promotions
Spoiler :
The only promotions that are related to ships are boarding, amphibious and navigation. I find that very, very bad especially considering there is an absolutely HUGE amount of promotions for land units. So I propose adding several more:

Navigator: land units only, requires amphibious and mobility 1, any ship this unit is on board gets 1 – 2 extra movement points and extra withdrawal rate

Current using (not the best name): needs navigation 2, add to withdrawal extra movement on coasts

Storm evasion: (might only be active if a navigator is on board) high resistance to lightning damage, immune to being pushed away by whirlwind

Looting: if the unit has boarding you gain extra gold if it takes over a ship. If the unit has amphibious you gain extra gold when amphibiously attacking a city

Ship defense: the unit will fight any boarding party instead of the boarder taking over the ship. If the defender dies the boarder can attack the ship or the remaining ship defenders on the same turn

ship sighting: land units only. the ship this unit is on cansee naval units 1-2 squares outside its visibility range

Another possibility is a 5 level ship combat promotion line each requiring the previous promotion and the “combat” promotion of the same level ( so ship combat 2 will take ship combat 1 and combat 2) and also some other promotions could be required for higher levels that the ship gains a extra strength point depending on how many more ship combat promotions it has than its opponent:
1 more promo: 1 extra strength point
2 more promo: 3 extra (1 + 2)
3 more promos: 6 more strength points (1 + 2 +3)
And so on

Ships that have a level requirement should be added since it takes a more experienced crew to man the better ships that it takes for smaller and less powerful ships



Suggestion number 3: ship spells
Spoiler :
Currently there are very few sea specific spells witch currently aren’t used very much. Also the only ship that can cast spells without having to invest in a mage is the arcane barge witch can only cast fireball so having a mage on board has more benefits than the reduced risk. So I propose giving the arcane barge a special set of sea spells requiring different mana but only one level for each

Some possible spells could be:
Doldrums: air mana required. Creates a area around the ship that has incredibly high movement costs for all units. Units with the fair winds promotion should have less of this effect (give it double movement in doldrums) and the area will gradually shrink into nothingness.

Whirlpool: requires water mana. Creates a whirlpool on the space the barge is on. In one the ship must move off the space the turn it casts this spell or the ship will be effected by the whirlpool. After one turn the whirlpool becomes invisible to everyone and if a ship - no matter who owns it – enters that space, it is immediately destroyed and the whirlpool disappears. Only one whirlpool for every arcane barge the civ owns (similar to skeletons and guardian vines) the player will be alerted when one of their whirlpools destroys a unit.

Coral reef: requires nature mana creates a coral reef space on the space that is invisible to everyone but the person who casted the spell. When a rival ship enters a adjacent square there is a relatively small chance that it will detect the reef. When a unit enters the square it takes 10% damage and loses a extra movement point. this can spread much like a forest and if every space anround a coral reef tile is filled with coral reefs then it turns into a special coral reef tile that is discovered very often and can be seen from a few tiles away with a somewhat lower discovery rate


Boiling seas: requires fire mana. Every ship in a area around the barge including friendly ones are set to 1 movement point, lose several points of strength and take 20% damage every turn. This effect should last for a certain amount of turns depending on the Armageddon counter but should last no more than 5 turns. If a mage with spring is on board it can cast spring every turn to spare its ship from this effect for one turn but only that turn and if it does the ship becomes immobile and unable to attack


Cursed seas: requires entropy mana. Can only be cast where hell has spread ( it still spreads even if the terrain doesn’t change) the square the ship is on becomes impassible and all units on the barges space are moved to a adjacent square. All units immediately stop moving and take high unholy damage when they enter a space adjacent to the space ( so it damages the ship and units on board) can be removed by casting sanctify next to it. The cursed seas has a low chance to spread to adjacent squares ( like a forest).


Giant wave: requires earth mana. Pretty much like a wakened version of ring of flames combined with a stronger version of whirlwind. So it deals light cold damage to all adjacent units and pushes all units 1 square away ( earthquakes cause tsunamis)


sugestion number 4: buildings/ improvements
Spoiler :
currently there is only one civ specific ship improvement and only one ship related building. so i would like to sugest some additions:

naval acadamies: the first version of this building would be built by a city with a harbor and would provide every naval unit built in its city 1 extra experience. then, a level 2 ship could come in and sacrifice itself to upgrade the academy to the next level. this should go up to about level 6 or 7. the amount of increase each upgrade gives should increase gradually. the next 2 upgradees would be built by great commanders and would be national wonders. the 10th version of it would have to be built for a large amount of production and would be a world wonder. these academies coudl be tied to certan techs and maybe could give certan naval promotions to units built in the city instead of increasing experience at certan levels.

another possible building would be a shipwright. this would require 2-3 lumbermills in your nation for each shipwright you build, 1 lumbermill being worked by the city and a shipyard. this building would make ships built much faster and make ship upgrades cheaper in the city. it also might be required for a certan ship or certan upgrades

pirate coves should be more usefull. so i sugest that there be a option for cities when it builds a ship that instead of the ship being produced in the city it is instead produced in a priate cove ( or if it is impossible to program just the nearest one) for a slightly increased cost. also units that areonboard ships in a priate cove should be able to be " shipped" to a city or other pirate cove for a fee preportional to the distance traveled

another improvement coudl be built by a special, expensive workboat and must be built adjacent to a city. the space this improvement is on produces one more commerce and hammer but no food. when the city works that tile it gets a small boost to ship production and trade route income


feel free to post any aditional suggestions or suggest a suggestion to suggest that my suggestion needs more suggestions:)
but please dont call me " kenken244" instead, call me " hey you" or just plain "you" would be fine. or, if you want, simply start talking without adressing me as anything
 
I think there should be more ships and they should be tied to more technologies, as opposed to a dedicated seafaring tech branch. Similar to how Man O' War and Queen of the Line are handled now. Differences between ships wouldn't be that large, and the upgrade costs would be low.

Instead of the boring cargo/combat ship lines, I would like to see more mixed use ships, special use ships and recon ships (all we have now is the caravel). Think Arcane Barge. That said, the pure combat ships should not have any cargo capacity.
 
well my interpretation is that we have enough ships but what is making it boring is that there is virtually no way to customise the ships so thats why i wrote 1,219 words of suggestions on how to make it more interesting. also the tecxh tree is supposted to be in branches. the only reason that the seafearing one isnt is that it is really short.

combat ships have cargo capacity because it allows the ships to exert some control over the coast and allow barding parties on board but it is not economically viable to make a transport fleet out of frigates, for example
 
Hum... the only change I'd like to see is making the Caravel buildable even after you get Astronomy. The ability to pass through borders can be really useful.

Oh, and kenken- you can PM Thunderfall to have your name changed if you want.
 
What I want to know...:eek:

Is how the heck is a queen of the line considered a promotion over a frigate?:confused:
 
I like these ideas, specifically the spells. the problem would be too teach the AI how to use them
 
i understand that the ai has trouble but really there is no point in teaching the ai how to use something if its not something the human player would enjoy and it would go mostly unnoticed
 
I think the biggest problem is that the AI doesn't seem to put any units on ships... Because of this I avoid any map that doesn't have complete land connections like the plauge.

I've had many games where an AI on a 9 tile island will have a city full of settlers, and ships. However the AI takes so long to build ships and when it does it doesn't give them hull upgrades so it just sits on it's little island forever and never does anything...
 
I've had many games where an AI on a 9 tile island will have a city full of settlers, and ships. However the AI takes so long to build ships and when it does it doesn't give them hull upgrades so it just sits on it's little island forever and never does anything...

I think this problem came with the custumize ship option added with 0.16 i think. With the old system the AI managed to start "decent" see attacks. Maybe it would help to have a very low strenght transporter that just uses the transport ai.
 
I think the biggest problem is that the AI doesn't seem to put any units on ships... Because of this I avoid any map that doesn't have complete land connections like the plauge.

I've had many games where an AI on a 9 tile island will have a city full of settlers, and ships. However the AI takes so long to build ships and when it does it doesn't give them hull upgrades so it just sits on it's little island forever and never does anything...


Really? I have never seen that problem. In my current game, I have had the Doviello, Clan and Balseraphs all drop off units on my continent to try and get in an opportunistic attack (I tend to keep my cities under-defended). They have never dropped off a proper invasion force, but have launched raiding parties so to speak. The complaint I do have is they always attack the closest city to them, so it is easy to defend against.
 
Really? I have never seen that problem. In my current game, I have had the Doviello, Clan and Balseraphs all drop off units on my continent to try and get in an opportunistic attack (I tend to keep my cities under-defended). They have never dropped off a proper invasion force, but have launched raiding parties so to speak. The complaint I do have is they always attack the closest city to them, so it is easy to defend against.

usually they attack cities they want... and if the cities are too far away- the ai decides the maintenance is too prohibitive...
(the ai doesn't usually plan for a future addition capitol anywhere)
 
yes, we all know the ai has problems.

and this thread has problems because people are talking about the ai instead of making ships and naval stuffsisies more interesting
 
yes, we all know the ai has problems.

and this thread has problems because people are talking about the ai instead of making ships and naval stuffsisies more interesting

i appluad your effort, interesting ideas, and being a pirates fan since the 64c, would love to see naval vessels in this game get some love, but i think step 1 is not to improve the ships, but to create the need for ships. As it stands the only reason i am aware of to create a navy is to put a stop to the altar victory or maybe try to bring the AC counter down a little if its happening on another land mass.
Really you build 1 or 2 to protect your fishing boats in case of war. Otherwise a navy is useless, especially since pirates can't pillage or do anything else, well, piratical, other than attack the boats you don't need.

water, water everywhere and not a damn thing you can do with most of it.
 
yes, we all know the ai has problems.

and this thread has problems because people are talking about the ai instead of making ships and naval stuffsisies more interesting


As was mentioned above, that was a stupid thing to say. The naval AI is key to improving ships in general.

Anyway, back to the topic. The AI doesn't just attack cities it wants. If it is too far away, as you stated, or indefensible, the AI will still attack it. It solves that problem by razing the city instead of keeping it, which is the correct behaviour.

I know this because I have been actively trying to help out with beta testing. I have removed units from cities that the AI would not be able to hold to make it easy to capture, and they raze it every time. However, these civs were all Evil, so that may explain the razing behaviour. I haven't had good civs declare war on me in 0.20 yet or send out raiding parties (I always choose random civ and have only been good or neutral so far).

On to the naval AI. I am not having the same problems you are. Maybe you are playing on maps with limited oceans, so land based attacks are possible. I think the AI does have an unhealthy preference for land attacks, but it definitely knows how to use a navy when it is the only option.

In my current game, the Calabim see me as their biggest threat (which they should). We are on separate continents, so they have built a huge navy. They have been hesitant to attack me all game and I have not launched a pre-emptive strike either, so we are in a stalemate situation. However, they patrol just beyond my waters with several Frigates (the best war ships they have available), as well as defend their own coast line.

My one problem with their current behaviour is they don't concentrate their forces. Their patrols are all single ships, while they leave whole armadas docked. I understand that they are trying to save on maintenance costs for the ships outside their borders, but their coast guard also exhibits this behaviour. Unless they are planning to launch an invasion fleet, I don't see why more ships aren't patrolling their waters.

However, while they don't stack ships at sea unless transporting units, their coast guard ships sail fairly close together where two of them could attack the same point on the same turn. I have noticed that they will shadow my ships, but they could still have more density though.

One of the biggest problems I see is that the AI is unwilling to launch suicide attempts. I can sail one Man O' War past several Frigates with relative impunity. The AI simply will not attack. Therefore, I can have unrealistically small escorts for my transport fleets, as my opponent's scatter before me instead of sacrificing a couple ships to weaken my Man O' War and get to my Galleon.

On a related note, the AI transport ships flee when they lose their escort, even when they can complete their "mission," so to speak. I had a situation where an enemy approached my territory using Stygian Guard as the escort unit. In the spirit of beta testing, I didn't attack to see where it landed. Then I reloaded and took out the Stygian Guard where the transport fleet could have made it to it's desired landing spot the next turn. Instead of making a run for my shores and dropping off the army, they all turned tail and ran.

Now, maybe the AI valued its fleet more than a punitive attack on me, which makes sense. Also, the Stygian Guard were also obviously a large part of the land force as well, so maybe they decided the army was too weak and it was best to call of the attack. However, I would still look into the code and see if the AI is capable of making a suicide run to drop off an army.

I know this is a long post, so I will summarize here:

The AI should be willing to launch a naval attack when a land attack is possible. This should obviously take into account the unique rewards and risks of a naval attack, including the increased movement speed and the relative strength of the opposing navy for instance.

The AI should not keep so many ships docked. If they have extra ships, they need to camp their fishing boats and patrol their waters in greater numbers. The AI should only gather a large fleet at dock or in the waters around the departure city when preparing an invasion fleet or hiding from superior forces.

When the AI has superior numbers, they should be willing to lose some of their ships to soften yours up and take them out.

When the AI loses its escorts, it transports should be willing to complete their mission.

On another note, the AI should not be able to judge your strength unless it scouts you properly. Whether it is spreading their religion, sending in caravels or whatever, I don't like how the AI currently senses how powerful you are. If I have to send out recon, so should they. ...and no, the power graph does not count as recon.
 
Ah, but both sides can see each others' power graphs. You can see theirs, they can see yours. I don't see anything unfair about it.


My point is the power graph tells you bugger all about your opponent's military (hell, it doesn't even measure military exclusively). You can't tell what someone's most powerful units are, how many of them he has, how many units he has in general, what cities are well defended, what the state of his cavalry (i.e. fast moving units) is, what is navy looks like, where his units are, etc. However, it seems like the AI knows all of these things without having to send out scouts. I have to send out scouts to get the same information.
 
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