How to Play as China?

[Öjevind Lång]

Every time I read the specs for Wu, it makes my mouth water, but I never seem to get the mileage out of playing as China that I should. Advice, anyone? Also, which would be your preferred victory playing as China? BTW, many people claim that it is almost impossible to switch course in game and head for another victory type. How true is that in your experience?

 

[Feyd Rautha]

In my single play as China (and based on what I've seen on the forums over the past months), playing China is a textbook example of leveraging the civilization unique traits.

Part 1: The Art of War
Using the improved Chinese generals and warfare is a central piece to the puzzle. The first thing to do is go down the left side of the "Honor" policy tree. A free great general and advanced XP will be a powerful boon to your burgeoning army. In addition, you can have short term scientific goals, but unlike most nations I would recommend getting Archery, Bronze Working, Iron Working, and Horseback Riding quickly so you can field a diverse army group. As China, I would always try to keep my army at 75-90% of the allowance cap. Not only does it give you a strong force to leverage your many benefits, but it allows you to always have "Domination" on the table as a victory type.

Part 2: Expansion
ICS is not necessarially the goal, but you DO want to expand when you have the happiness. It not only gives you more room in your army, but with the Paper Maker it allows you to reach a positive return on your city investment very quickly. Conquest or pushing out settlers it doesn't matter. Every city is a good thing to a certain point. If you want to focus more on Cultural victory, produce a core of three cities and puppet the world. The beauty of the Paper Maker is that you can keep a very high gold return allowing for that big army you want and still being able to quickly purchase markets, monuments, and other vital buildings in the cities you just founded.

Part 3: Chu-Ko-Nu
Like I said above, get Archery quickly and make some archers. The XP they'd been gaining throughout the turns from the advanced xp of the Honor tree allow you to quickly upgrade to powerful Chu-Ko-Nus and subjugate the world. (Just be sure to NOT take logistics on your archers before you upgrade!) Honestly, this is where I won my game as the Chinese. Crossbows come at a time where you have everything you need to go for a domination victory. If you're on a continents map just shoot for navigation after machinery and by the time you've crushed your continent, the army is ready for mass embarkation to put the infidels across the ocean to the sword. Even if you don't want to go for Domination you'll have everything you need to own your continent once the Chu-Ko-Nu arrive and then you can just sit and pursue the other goal. If you don't make it, you still have your impressive army to sail across the seas and dominate your opponents if they're about to beat you.

Conclusion:
In the end, China, like most of the civilizations, is geared towards that Domination victory, but adding the Paper Maker into the mix allows them to branch out if they so choose. You cannot ignore the Domination aspect, but that aspect allows you to pursue other victories. Yes the Greeks may beat you on that diplomatic victory you're going for, or Babylon could really outstrip you scientifically. Guess what, though, they can't win if they're civilization has been destroyed!

 

[swordspider]

Every time I read the specs for Wu, it makes my mouth water, but I never seem to get the mileage out of playing as China that I should. Advice, anyone? Also, which would be your preferred victory playing as China? BTW, many people claim that it is almost impossible to switch course in game and head for another victory type. How true is that in your experience?

China has a few specific points that you need to exploit to play it correctly, I really enjoy playing China as a Civ and never lose with them. Here is a basic breakdown of how I play:

#1, you are a militaristic civ so unless you want to try something abnormal, your goal should be to go for a MILITARY victory. You don't spawn great generals faster and they don't get an additional attack bonus because you're supposed to win a cultural or science victory. China=War.

#2, China peaks early with Military. At Machinery&Steel you should be by far the most powerful Civ on the map. If you're not, you aren't playing China right.

#3, For social policies, I typically go for the 50% growth rate of my capital and then the 50% faster settler production (solely for its implications in early game expansion). As China, I almost never focus on culture, they are a gold/military civ and should be played as such. I expand quickly and rarely make it to a 4th social policy before I have won a domination victory.

#4, Likewise, unless you have a super-sick production capital, I really just bypass Wonder building. Instead of building a wonder, I pump out more military units or other buildings to help the military like barracks (which gives free upgrades which generates generals even faster!).

#5, You absolutely want to build Paper Makers (unique library) in every city all the time. They are a library+gold and keep you ahead in both revenue and tech. They are also pretty cheap in the grand scheme of buildings. Before you know it, your gold revenues will be double that of your opponents and you'll have no problem buying military units, happiness buildings, or most importantly- military upgrades.

#6, Your Chu-ko-nu (crossbow unique) is absolutely positively the wickedest unit in the early game *if* you know how to use it (available with Machinery). It gets 2 attacks per turn, or 1 attack and a move, which makes them awesome for hit and runs or pure sniping. In addition, they are stronger than crossbows and seem to do more damage to armored units (like swordsmen and longs). The end result is a highly mobile and versatile long-range killing machine. If you have 3 swordmens or longswordsmen as your front line and 3-5 chu's backing them up, you can really wreck havoc on units/cities, etc. Also, when the chu's get the city-attack upgrade, 3 of them can reduce a level 20 defense city to 50% in one volley (remember they attack twice! It is the same as having 6 crossbows!). Utilizing this unit is key to victory for China. You should absolutely plan to take out 1-2 other Civs as soon as you get Chu's. When you are getting towards Machinery, you should be pumping out as many archers as you can make. Chu's are very expensive and take a lot of time to build, but to upgrade to one from an Archer is cheap and quick. Once you get Machinery, you can't build archers anymore and are forced to build the chu's, so that can actually set you back! I typically have 6 archers or more ready to upgrade when I hit machinery and sometimes even pause finishing that tech to let any queued archers finish or else they will be set way back in time when changed over to chu's!

#7, Your Great Generals are your next biggest asset, they spawn fast and have 35% attack bonus for nearby units (10% more than other civ generals). They are critical to have with any army, and they spawn quick enough that you can easily have 2 separate high-end attack divisions. In addition, if you are attacking a civ that doesn't have a general, you're getting a huge bonus to attack. If you're attacking one that does have a general, you effectively are eliminating the bonus of their general AND still getting a +10% attack for yours! Any more than 2 generals that spawn you can use for quick free golden ages unless you are on a huge map with many military divisions. You get your first general very fast, which gives an additional early-game advantage for your Chu attack!

Hope this helps.

 

[swordspider]

Part 1: The Art of War
Using the improved Chinese generals and warfare is a central piece to the puzzle. The first thing to do is go down the left side of the "Honor" policy tree. A free great general and advanced XP will be a powerful boon to your burgeoning army. In addition, you can have short term scientific goals, but unlike most nations I would recommend getting Archery, Bronze Working, Iron Working, and Horseback Riding quickly so you can field a diverse army group. As China, I would always try to keep my army at 75-90% of the allowance cap. Not only does it give you a strong force to leverage your many benefits, but it allows you to always have "Domination" on the table as a victory type.

I used to take this path and found it to be much less effective than just getting some other buffs for the Civ. Not disagreeing that it is a valid path to take, but here were my issues:

1. Getting Honor alone only gives you a bonus vs. barbs, which is really not that great.

2. Getting a free general is cool, but again you are spending a social policy on a single unit and as soon as you start an attack you will be spawning them like crazy, so the opportunity cost just isn't worth it for say double capital growth or half-time settler production.

3. Once you are in the tech tree that deep though, there are two more policies that ARE valid, the increased experience bonus and the 15% bonus of having units next to each other. HOWEVER, a lot of times with the city expansion, you won't even make it this far in the social policy and thus the 1 or 2 of the most important reasons to go that route have been nullified.

 

[Bibor]

China is a pretty straightforward civ.

Paper maker gives 4 per turn, 6 per turn with a market place and bank.
10 cities 60 gold per turn, 20 cities 120 gold per turn. Be big. Conquer or expand for maximum profit.

Chinese Great Generals enable you to skip Honor. Invest into Piety instead to support your massive empire.

The Chu-ko-nu is a good support unit, but that's it. It's not a keshik nor a musketeer. Don't expect gamebreaking results.

 

[Smote]

China has these comparative advantages:


ECONOMY:
Gold production -> buying things -> hammers. So 3-4 city -> NC probably good idea, since each city will have a papermaker up very fast in this build.


AGGRESSION:
Unit advantage compared to anyone not using their unique unit or ability. China's units will always fight 20% better than theirs (35% if they don't have a general). They will not be able to stop you without greater tech or oligarchy. For this goal, I find longswordsmen, riflemen are best. Note that: Chinese longswordsmen = samurai > all other longswordsmen. Chinese riflemen > all other riflemen (except arguably Ottoman upgraded janissaries or Persian riflemen during golden age).

Chu-ko-nu's will have to use most of their movement moving and not shoot enough to be worth it. Same with catapults, trebuchets. Knights are too easily countered by pikemen.

DEFENSE:
Chu-ko-nu's are fantastic defenders. One of my memorable defeats is when I was attempting to domination with longswordsmen, and 4-5 Chu-ko-nus on rough terrain stopped my entire army, and caused my eventual defeat. They are best used if you decide the best goal is to defend and out-tech your opponent (Via rifles or beyond).

Otherwise, build longswordsmen and attack.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Thanks everybody! I really appreciate this advice. Perversely, though, I have decided to try to go for a scientific or diplomatic victory. On a large map with small continents and islands. So far, I seem to be doing fairly well. I may also try to check if it is really so difficult to change course from one victory type to another as some gamers claim.

So far, my army is practically nonexistent; I'm alone on my continent and Gandhi is my closest neighbour. A frigate, many galleys, a scout, a pikeman and some archers and spearmen - that's basically what I have. I've decided to get the Circus Maximus and the National Bank early and then start to spread from my home continent. I did get Stonehenge, the Oracle and Chichen Itza, because I simply did not want to expand too fast and had enough units for fogbusting purpoes. I've befriended a couple of city states. Everybody likes me except Mehmet, who is hated by everyone else. I've just researched Navigation. I've got most of Tradition and have started to work my way down Patronage.

Now tell me if this is completely insane. So far, I'm doing good.

 

[ds61514]

BTW, many people claim that it is almost impossible to switch course in game and head for another victory type. How true is that in your experience?

This is untrue, unless it's to/from Culture Victory. My first Deity win was gonna be either Domination or Diplomatic....


As for China, some specific considerations:

* Free logistics makes CKN--> Rifle incredibly efficient. For this reason, you may consider delaying Rifling until you have enough CKNs and instead research more economic techs.

* If you decide to attack with horseman, attack earlier with fewer numbers so you can get your GG quicker.

* Paper Maker gives you a very efficient city-square, so ICS.

 

[iggymnrr]

China is a pretty straightforward civ.

Paper maker gives 4 per turn, 6 per turn with a market place and bank.
10 cities 60 gold per turn, 20 cities 120 gold per turn. Be big. Conquer or expand for maximum profit.

Chinese Great Generals enable you to skip Honor. Invest into Piety instead to support your massive empire.

The Chu-ko-nu is a good support unit, but that's it. It's not a keshik nor a musketeer. Don't expect gamebreaking results.

Pretty accurate. I play king level and often start with a 3-city NC opening followed by more expansion/puppets. Puppets often come with libraries which in China's case will be papermakers. Straightforward with no real problems. Key word in the above is probably piety.

Edit: It is so straightforward I will knock the papermaker since without it things go well anyways.

 

[Smote]

This is untrue, unless it's to/from Culture Victory. My first Deity win was gonna be either Domination or Diplomatic....


As for China, some specific considerations:

* Free logistics makes CKN--> Rifle incredibly efficient. For this reason, you may consider delaying Rifling until you have enough CKNs and instead research more economic techs.

* If you decide to attack with horseman, attack earlier with fewer numbers so you can get your GG quicker.

* Paper Maker gives you a very efficient city-square, so ICS.

Ah, I never considered the free logistics on a melee unit! That's pretty nasty, for an already powerful civilization. It means your rifles can attack twice and thus become super elite much faster

 

[Bibor]

Edit: It is so straightforward I will knock the papermaker since without it things go well anyways.

You cant. Paper is needed for the huge bureaucracy you'll be running.

 

[iggymnrr]

You cant. Paper is needed for the huge bureaucracy you'll be running.

I forgot about that!

 

[davelisowski]

Double attacking rifles!

http://www.forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=407900

 

[Öjevind Lång]

I'm now at the year 1645, and I have so much fun it's fantastic. It looks like I'll be able to build Machu Pichu before anone else. (I might get Taj Mahal too, but that would be a sheer bonus for a Golden Age.) The Cho-Ko-Nu building program is under way, and I will soon discover Scientific Theory. I have trade agreements with a couple of other civs. I have Friendship Agreements with Ram, Harun, Gandhi, Napoleon, Askia and Washington, who all approve of my friendship with the others. Mehmet would like to be my friend too, but none of the others seems to like him except Harun. There's some other leader who seems to like me OK, but we don't interact much. I've settled my entire home continent now, except for an area in the interior. Askia has taken up residence on a nearby minor continent and he's welcome to it. I'm friendly with a couple of marine city states, and there is a city state on my own continent I intend to puppet when the time comes, because it has silver, andalso one of the other city states would like me a lot of I take it out, and another, one of my friends, wants to be connected to silver. Currenty having 8 cities, and will try to keep it that way for a loong time.

I have 3 frigates and can upgrade some galleys to get more whenever I want to. I've given in to the requests for handouts from Gandhi, Washington and Ram and been nice to all the others in various ways, such as returning captive citizens. I've explored the major part of the map.The program keeps telling me to build caravels, but right now, I find it more important to establish monuments, paper makers and colosseums in all my cities, for obvious reasons. Besides, my age of exploration is nearing its end. I'm building marketplaces in a couple of cities, but there's no hurry about them. again for obvious reasons.

BTW, two or three friendly city states should be enough for me, shouldn't they? Unless I decide to go for Diplomatic later on. By now, I have all of Tradition and all of Piety except the one where city states sometimes give you a GP. I've got a strong navy and am about to get a strong army, mostly cho-ko-nuts and knights. I haven't discovered gunpowder yet and feel in no hurry to do so. The others have fought one or two rather inconclusive wars. I had no idea playing on a small continents and islands map could be so much fun. After Scientific Method I'll head straight for Space Flight and pick up other technologies through research agreements. What say you, people?

 

[bryanw1995]

China has a few specific points that you need to exploit to play it correctly, I really enjoy playing China as a Civ and never lose with them. Here is a basic breakdown of how I play:

#1, you are a militaristic civ so unless you want to try something abnormal, your goal should be to go for a MILITARY victory. You don't spawn great generals faster and they don't get an additional attack bonus because you're supposed to win a cultural or science victory. China=War.

#2, China peaks early with Military. At Machinery&Steel you should be by far the most powerful Civ on the map. If you're not, you aren't playing China right.

#3, For social policies, I typically go for the 50% growth rate of my capital and then the 50% faster settler production (solely for its implications in early game expansion). As China, I almost never focus on culture, they are a gold/military civ and should be played as such. I expand quickly and rarely make it to a 4th social policy before I have won a domination victory.

#4, Likewise, unless you have a super-sick production capital, I really just bypass Wonder building. Instead of building a wonder, I pump out more military units or other buildings to help the military like barracks (which gives free upgrades which generates generals even faster!).

#5, You absolutely want to build Paper Makers (unique library) in every city all the time. They are a library+gold and keep you ahead in both revenue and tech. They are also pretty cheap in the grand scheme of buildings. Before you know it, your gold revenues will be double that of your opponents and you'll have no problem buying military units, happiness buildings, or most importantly- military upgrades.

#6, Your Chu-ko-nu (crossbow unique) is absolutely positively the wickedest unit in the early game *if* you know how to use it (available with Machinery). It gets 2 attacks per turn, or 1 attack and a move, which makes them awesome for hit and runs or pure sniping. In addition, they are stronger than crossbows and seem to do more damage to armored units (like swordsmen and longs). The end result is a highly mobile and versatile long-range killing machine. If you have 3 swordmens or longswordsmen as your front line and 3-5 chu's backing them up, you can really wreck havoc on units/cities, etc. Also, when the chu's get the city-attack upgrade, 3 of them can reduce a level 20 defense city to 50% in one volley (remember they attack twice! It is the same as having 6 crossbows!). Utilizing this unit is key to victory for China. You should absolutely plan to take out 1-2 other Civs as soon as you get Chu's. When you are getting towards Machinery, you should be pumping out as many archers as you can make. Chu's are very expensive and take a lot of time to build, but to upgrade to one from an Archer is cheap and quick. Once you get Machinery, you can't build archers anymore and are forced to build the chu's, so that can actually set you back! I typically have 6 archers or more ready to upgrade when I hit machinery and sometimes even pause finishing that tech to let any queued archers finish or else they will be set way back in time when changed over to chu's!

#7, Your Great Generals are your next biggest asset, they spawn fast and have 35% attack bonus for nearby units (10% more than other civ generals). They are critical to have with any army, and they spawn quick enough that you can easily have 2 separate high-end attack divisions. In addition, if you are attacking a civ that doesn't have a general, you're getting a huge bonus to attack. If you're attacking one that does have a general, you effectively are eliminating the bonus of their general AND still getting a +10% attack for yours! Any more than 2 generals that spawn you can use for quick free golden ages unless you are on a huge map with many military divisions. You get your first general very fast, which gives an additional early-game advantage for your Chu attack!

Hope this helps.

some good ideas there, but where did you read that CKN is better than xbow? they have ranged attack of 10, while xbow is 12. advantage: xbow.

 

[bryanw1995]

I'm now at the year 1645, and I have so much fun it's fantastic. It looks like I'll be able to build Machu Pichu before anone else. (I might get Taj Mahal too, but that would be a sheer bonus for a Golden Age.) The Cho-Ko-Nu building program is under way, and I will soon discover Scientific Theory. I have trade agreements with a couple of other civs. I have Friendship Agreements with Ram, Harun, Gandhi, Napoleon, Askia and Washington, who all approve of my friendship with the others. Mehmet would like to be my friend too, but none of the others seems to like him except Harun. There's some other leader who seems to like me OK, but we don't interact much. I've settled my entire home continent now, except for an area in the interior. Askia has taken up residence on a nearby minor continent and he's welcome to it. I'm friendly with a couple of marine city states, and there is a city state on my own continent I intend to puppet when the time comes, because it has silver, andalso one of the other city states would like me a lot of I take it out, and another, one of my friends, wants to be connected to silver. Currenty having 8 cities, and will try to keep it that way for a loong time.

I have 3 frigates and can upgrade some galleys to get more whenever I want to. I've given in to the requests for handouts from Gandhi, Washington and Ram and been nice to all the others in various ways, such as returning captive citizens. I've explored the major part of the map.The program keeps telling me to build caravels, but right now, I find it more important to establish monuments, paper makers and colosseums in all my cities, for obvious reasons. Besides, my age of exploration is nearing its end. I'm building marketplaces in a couple of cities, but there's no hurry about them. again for obvious reasons.

BTW, two or three friendly city states should be enough for me, shouldn't they? Unless I decide to go for Diplomatic later on. By now, I have all of Tradition and all of Piety except the one where city states sometimes give you a GP. I've got a strong navy and am about to get a strong army, mostly cho-ko-nuts and knights. I haven't discovered gunpowder yet and feel in no hurry to do so. The others have fought one or two rather inconclusive wars. I had no idea playing on a small continents and islands map could be so much fun. After Scientific Method I'll head straight for Space Flight and pick up other technologies through research agreements. What say you, people?

don't take out that CS unless you're prepared for the mass-denunciation chain to commence. just ally with it instead.

 

[Feyd Rautha]

As for your first query, taking that city-state should not be a problem if you have three frigates near the home front and a force of Chu-Ko-Nu and Knights. I would warn against further aggression against city-states, however, because if you attack two city-states (who haven't declared on you due to alliances) then you get a random CS that will declare on you for your "bullying". If this is your first city-state attack, however, you're generally OK and won't face a negative hit (you may be denounced by another civ, but since your friends with most of them they won't stir the pot after a single military offensive.)

As for your building orders, I'd set two of your frigates to "Explore" and bring the other one home for local protection (I'd begin the process of upgrading triremes also). Once you conquer the nearby CS you can choose to turtle up and pursue your victory of choice.

Diplomatically, I'd press the issue between the other civilizations who have chosen to war against one another. If you can keep them hating each other they won't all simultaneously declare on you.

Scientifically, you should be fine to push towards science buildings in your empire and go for a space victory. The problem with a science victory is if you are in Piety (although you've cited that you are missing a Patronage civic) since a space victory really needs Rationalism for the scientific leaps. However, if you actually have Patronage instead of Piety you have the groundwork for that last minute shift of influence buying needed if you start getting beat into space and need to go Diplomatic.

Finally, militarily you should be set as long as you keep your forces upgraded and try to maintain a 1:1 warship to warship ratio with your neighbors. The only action I would take is if a civ you are not bound to by resource agreements (i.e. they have a luxury you don't) messes with a city-state. If a civ takes a city-state and you then "liberate" that city-state you'll have a guaranteed vote when the UN is built. This isn't saying you have to pursue that course, but I wouldn't ignore the easy path to keeping your diplo victory option open.

Good luck!

 

[Öjevind Lång]

I won a space victory in the 1970's and could easily have won a diplomatic one instead. I think that I could pretty late in the game have switched to a cultural victory as well, had I so chosen. Or domination, for that matter. Taking out that city state I mentioned had no repercussions; in fact three other city states started to like me because I had taken out their enemy. So I gained silver *and* three allies, who were all maritime cities! After that, I did not attack any other city state, since there was no reason to do so.

I was befriended by every other civ in the game, and the only downside to that was that they kept coming to me for handouts, which hampered my ability to upgrade units. Even so, I got almost all of Tradition, all of Patronage and quite a bit of Liberty, Rational and Commercial. And I built all of the late wonders while I was at it. I know my choice of how to play was counterintuitive, but it was fun! I'll try Wu again with a more aggressive approach, and maybe on a standard continents map.

I only got to use the Chu-Ko-Nu against that city state, and they were indeed deadly.

One important lesson: DON'T befriend everybody! If you dont give them handouts all the time, they denounce you. Best to confine onself to one or two friends, preferably distant ones with different goals than you. Gandhi, for example, or maybe Napoleon. (Napoleon and Alex are good sports in their way.) Catherine, Washington and Ram are sheer posion, of course. I wonder what Genghis Khan would be like as a friend.

 

[Airey]

some good ideas there, but where did you read that CKN is better than xbow? they have ranged attack of 10, while xbow is 12. advantage: xbow.

the mobility allows them to fight at 100% if micro correctly...xbow is prob dead after 1 shot if not properly protected.

 

[iggymnrr]

One way to play China is to make Beijing a monster.

Spoiler :

It's an almost real game. I had to speed it up to finish a faster. (Have Fun mod) Nothing that can't be done with tradition 'cept oligarchy, patronage, a lot of freedom, a little rationalism and the base policy in commerce.