How/When to switch from Despotism? Help.

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Moo
I don't find much use in keeping a computer around on your continent on Emperor level. In the Emperor games I have played, you can still do pretty everything like going for tech, military, wonders, and military at the same time without too many problems. I usually raze all the computer cities and build my own unless there is a useable wonder in the captured. I trade a few techs in the Ancient Age, and by the end of the Middle Ages, I am usually 1 or 2 techs ahead of the computers, all the while never setting the research rate over 60%. I never trade techs with the computer after the Ancient Age to always keep my military more advanced that theirs. I either buy them or trade luxuries. I save the massive D-Day style invasion until I get transports. By then I should be 4 to 5 techs ahead of the computer (should be only 1 major AI left at this point) and have been pumping out armies every 7 or 8 turns. I would land armies of Infantry on the computer as defense and use cavalry to take the cities. 3 Infantry armies should hold off anything the computer throws at you, and your cavalry will finish off the retreating fast units without suffering much damage. Since Infantry moves so slow in enemy territory, it's much better to load them onto the transport again and unload at the next enemy coastal city. Now, Deity is another story. I had to adapt to a very different playing style just to stay afloat like utilizing slave camps which I did not have to do on Emperor.

It makes sense that keeping another civ alive on your continent would not make sense on a smaller world, because everything is so cramped.

If you have no trouble keeping up in every way with the AI on emperor level, I am guessing that your are:

1. Playing on a tiny or small world.
2. Not playing with many opponents.
3. Playing a mod.
4. Not playing emperor level at all.
5. Really, really good.

It makes sense that keeping another civ alive on your continent would not make sense on a smaller world, because everything is so cramped.

On larger worlds, keeping a civ alive with 5 or 6 cities works wonders. I have often noticed ai civs that have nearly been wiped out, still manage to trade for the most up to date techs. Using this strategy, you can let your friend get them however this is accomplished (AI partnership?), and then get them from them with money or resources or luxuries.

 

[Moo]

Actually, all the games I play now are on Standard maps with 8 Civs and raging barbarians. I tried playing on huge maps before and it was just too tedious, and the game became more of a chore than fun. This problem still exist on standard maps especially when pollution comes into play. Anyway, playing on Emperor isn't that tough when you get the jump on the computer in tech, and never trade your own techs with them to keep them updated. You don't need a very big military since your forces are more modern and all elite. I choose to play as the Chinese since around the middle ages is when I get my special unit. That extra mobility really speeds up the conquest of the entire continent, and since military tradition won't come until towards the end of the Middle Ages, your riders will rule the realm for a long time.

 

[BillChin]

I think the key for staying ahead on tech is the raging Barbs. The AI players always send just one escort so raging Barbs keeps them from expanding fast. I play on the default Barb setting and the AI players are always ahead of me on tech, even when I get way ahead on cities and culture. Looks to me like another case of apples and oranges of people talking about completely different situations because of the initial settings.

As for one of the streams about Monarchy, I try it in my new game. I play Emperor level, random map type, standard size world, default barbs, eight players, random civ. I get Egyptians, and the best map I have seen in a long, long time. The nearest neighbor is like half a world away. I decide to go for the wheel first, and then build towards Monarchy. Works pretty well. The three military police option helps a great deal. With Republic it is tough to get pop 12 cities because of the unhappy citizens. With Monarchy it is much easier.

So I have come around and Monarchy can be useful, though I think with Republic I might have kept up in the tech race a little better. Despite having like double the land mass of the next biggest empire, I am behind on tech because of Monarchy. Monarchy generates little gold despite having bigger cities than I can under Republic. However the big pop gives me a higher score, and makes the other civs respect me more. So there is a trade off.

I still have a saved game with me owning 60% of the land in the world and the Zulus owning the other 40%. They are ahead on tech and production because of the cheats. I can win that game, but it looks like at least ten hours of slugging it out to get enough land for a domination victory.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Moo
Actually, all the games I play now are on Standard maps with 8 Civs and raging barbarians. I tried playing on huge maps before and it was just too tedious, and the game became more of a chore than fun. This problem still exist on standard maps especially when pollution comes into play. Anyway, playing on Emperor isn't that tough when you get the jump on the computer in tech, and never trade your own techs with them to keep them updated. You don't need a very big military since your forces are more modern and all elite. I choose to play as the Chinese since around the middle ages is when I get my special unit. That extra mobility really speeds up the conquest of the entire continent, and since military tradition won't come until towards the end of the Middle Ages, your riders will rule the realm for a long time.

I still don't understand how you get the jump on the AI in tech. Not that I don't believe you, but I usually find myself behind by 4 or 5 techs by the time I meet the closest civ. I can remedy this and catch up, but while I am researching my next tech, the ai civs all manage to get another 5 or 6 techs ahead. That is my problem in the ancient era. During the middle ages, I usually remain one or two techs behind, and by the industrial era I have usually caught up. Specific strategies for the ancient age would be very helpful. This is probably the only thing that keeps me from playing emperor routinely, rather than switching between monarch and emperor.

I definately agree with you about the Chinese. They are definately one of my favorite civs. The extra chance of leaders can be very useful on high levels, and industrious is just plain wonderful.

Originally posted by BillChin
I think the key for staying ahead on tech is the raging Barbs. The AI players always send just one escort so raging Barbs keeps them from expanding fast. I play on the default Barb setting and the AI players are always ahead of me on tech, even when I get way ahead on cities and culture.

Interesting point. I think I will have to try that. I am, however, not entirely convinced that the barbs harrass the ai that much.



My current game, as the Babylonians, is played on a large map, 12 civs and large pangea landmass. Unfortunately the map that was generated was more akin to an archipelago. Even though the babs are religious, I was actually forced to remain in monarchy the entire time, up until the end of the middle ages. Talk about a violent game. Constant warfare for 5000 years. Anyway, over this time, I did fall behind in tech, because one civ, the English, somehow managed to stay out of the wars and stay in republic. They got almost all the wonders. However, by the time I quite last night, I had about three times the landmass and cities they did, having picked up a few from every other civ at some point, whether from culture or war. When I come for them, it will not last long. I will be able to win a domination victory pretty easily, as there is not much land, and almost all of it is on the main continent. My point is that, even though you may fall way behind in tech with monarchy, you can accumulate a large amount of land and eventually catch up. If the civs building the wonders are near you, you always have the option of taking them by force. At this point in the game, I do have the option of making peace with everyone, and changing to democracy. My military has continued to grow through all of the wars, so would act as quite a deterrent for civs to declare war on me. I would very quickly catch up to the English in technology because of the large number of cities I have. It is simply a matter of personal preference. To war or not to war?

 

[Loopy]

I'm with eyrei with questions about how Moo maintains a tech lead on Emperor level. The AI has a significant production advantage and being the first one to research a tech costs much more. You can't possibly be the first to all branches of the tech tree. Furthemore, the AI will make exorbitant demands if it's the only one with a tech and you want it. I don't see how it's possible to pay out for techs without offering any techs at that level.

Anyway, back to Hawkx9 original question. I deal with unhapiness by letting the govenor manage city moods, micromanaging only when wonder building or it hits a pop cap. Whip unhappiness lasts a long while, but I find that with the govenor it almost sorts itself out. Unhappy citizens -> entertainers -> less food -> no more city growth. I also prefer to only whip 1 citizen to death if at all possible.

Keeping good trade relations (and submitting to some demands) can also make up for a weaker army. Trade is really important now. Getting those extra luxuries (or having them to trade later in the game) helps tremendously in keeping your people happy.

 

[Moo]

Eyrei, in the beginning you will always be 4-5 techs behind the computer since every civilization starts out with different techs and since the computer always trade tech with each other, and since the computer is always exploring faster than you, it is very likely that when you first make contact, they appear very advanced. In the Ancient Age, you will be behind the computer in terms of tech, but that's OK. I start off by going for Monarchy since that is the route the AI does not go. Once I get a tech the AIs don't have, I go around and trade it with everyone, and it should get you caught up some what. The wonders I go for in the Ancient Age is Colossus. Make sure you pick a good commerce location for this city, because it will be your science and forbidden palace city. Rivers and bonus resources like gold, gems, silk are a huge plus. Building a Colossus usually should not be a problem since it has to be built on a coastal city and chances are the AI don't have their capital on the coast, and if they did, they usually go for Pyramids. You can also build the Hanging Gardens since you will usually get that tech first. There are certain techs the AI likes to reaerch first, make sure you research something different. In the Middle Ages, the most important wonders for me are Copernicus' Observatory and Newton's University. Build them in the same city as Colossus and make sure you also have the Library and University there as well. That super science city should generate enough science to pull you ahead for good by the end of the Middle Ages. The last Emeperor game I played, I had that city producing 150+ science beakers and my science rate was only set at 50%. The second closest city weas only producing something like 25 beakers. I also switch to Republic as soon as pratical to get that additional commerce per square. I also keep my military relatively small, advaced, and elite. Most of my inner cities aren't even guarded since riders can cover so much ground in a hurry. This serves many purposes. First it saves me alot of money and second, it makes me appear weak to the AI. This will encourage them to bully me since that is exactly what I want. I usually piss them off by demanding stuff from them, not to actually get it but to make them furious at me. And then when they have troops in your territory, give them an ultimatum and unless they are pathetically weak, they will declare war on you. And by the end of the Middle Ages, you should have defeated all the computers on your continent. I usually don't keep any AIs around because they can't help me. I have more money and more tech. Keeping them around only means I need to garrison more troops in my cities. The last wonders the computer might get in my game is either Shakesphere's Theatre of Magellan's Voyage. Everything after that should all be mine. That's my experience with Emperor in a nutshell. I am not saying it's easy, it's hard about half way through the Middle Ages, and after that it should be a matter of following through with the motions.

 

[eyrei]

The collossus is the only ancient wonder I ever get on emperor, because I will make sure my capital is on the coast. Good hint about going straight for monarchy, as I too have noticed the AI goes for everything else first. Even then, I still will not get to polytheism first, let alone monarchy. After the initial round of trading I do pretty much catch up in technology, only to fall behind again as the ai civs all finish their research, trade them, and move on to the next. The problem with trading techs on monarch is that the ai values the tech based on how many turns it will take to research. With the huge science bonus, even without having begun research on a tech, it is probably only 20 turns, as opposed to the 40 it will take the human player. So when you go to trade a tech, say polytheism, for techs you have not begun to research, they will require a great deal of gold in addition, if they are willing to trade at all - polytheism is worth only 20 turns of research to them, while their techs are worth up to 40 turns of research to you.

Also, the last thing I normally want to do on emperor is convince the ai to attack me. One or two I can handle (if I have a strong military), but it rarely stays like this, especially if your army is small. They quickly move in for the easy pickings which are unfortunately yor cities.

I agree about the middle age wonders. The two science wonders, and Magellan's expedition are the only ones I even bother to try for on emperor, unless I have a city with really high production. I usually manage to get one of the science wonders, and magellan's expedition. That one science city will tip the scales in your favor if you can get it (or at least even things out a little).

I still really don't get how you keep up in science in the ancient era without neglecting everything else. I guess I will just have to play some more games on this level. I have played 5 or 6, have won diplomatic victories twice, and quite the others at the beginning of the modern age, because I didn't have enough territory, resources or military units to do anything but survive. At least I have managed to survive, though. BTW, one of the diplomatic victories I won, I was actually still third in score even after the bonus for victory. Kind of funny.

 

[Moo]

I don't believe you can keep up with the AI in tech in the Ancient Age. The best I have done was to pull even only to fall behind again. If you are trying to keep up with the AI through peaceful means, then I think you will only fall further behind. One thing you need to remember is that you really do need to give war a chance. I'd say at least 90% of the time in my games, I am at war with at least someone. You will never be able to out build and out expand the computer, but you will outshine the computer in terms of battlefield tactics. The AI is also not very good at building improvements around their cities early. Their cities usually aren't linked by roads until much later. Even when they have better tech than you in the Ancient Age, they don't necessarily have superior military units. War serves several purposes especially in the early goings. You get tech when you force them to surrender, you get money, you get maps, you get contacts, you get workers to develop your cities, you get territory without having to build them yourself and lastly, war is adversity, it forces you to play with a sense of urgency and it keeps you ever vigilant and performing at your best. Just as in real life, civilizations become empires through war and conquest, and ultimately crumble after centuries of complacency and decadence. Remember, give war a chance.

 

[Moo]

Originally posted by eyrei


I definately agree with you about the Chinese. They are definately one of my favorite civs. The extra chance of leaders can be very useful on high levels, and industrious is just plain wonderful.


Actually, I think Industrious is a bit overrated. Sure, workers working at 2x speed is great. But in most of my games, the vast majority of my worker force is slave labor from conquests. In fact, in the last Emperor game I played, I had built only 2 workers in the entire game! I believe for my playing style, religious and militaristic are the best characteristics, but that extra point of mobility for the Chinese is just huge. Being able to cover a large area for both offense and defense and the ability to take over enemy cities with devastating speed all during the most critical time period in the game is just too much to overlook.

 

[Moo]

Originally posted by Loopy
I'm with eyrei with questions about how Moo maintains a tech lead on Emperor level. The AI has a significant production advantage and being the first one to research a tech costs much more. You can't possibly be the first to all branches of the tech tree.

I am not trying to be first in every branch of the tech tree. I only research those that would give me a militaristic or scientific advantage. For instance, I do not research the printing press, democracy and free artistry branch. I also don't research the nationalism, communism, and espionage branch either. I don't feel those branches offer me anything significant, I'd much rather buy or trade luxuries for those techs when the AI gets them while I advance further up the tech tree for superior wonders and military units.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Moo


I am not trying to be first in every branch of the tech tree. I only research those that would give me a militaristic or scientific advantage. For instance, I do not research the printing press, democracy and free artistry branch. I also don't research the nationalism, communism, and espionage branch either. I don't feel those branches offer me anything significant, I'd much rather buy or trade luxuries for those techs when the AI gets them while I advance further up the tech tree for superior wonders and military units.

I certainly agree with you here, particularly about the nationalism, communism, espionage branch. It offers no great wonders, and I remain aloof from MPPs unitl WWI has already started so I can pick my side. In the middle ages, the other route leads to the two city-science wonders and Magellan's expedition.

My main problem with the ancient age tech race, beyond the huge AI bonuses, is that I cannot seem to get my research times below 40 turns without taken a huge loss in money, unless everybody else has already researched it.

War probably is the answer to most of these problems. But sometimes, if I do not start from a good, and defensible position, war with anyone that early is suicide. Even if I win, it slows down my production of settlers enough that I end up with only a tiny little country. Often these wars are started by civs that are quite a distance away, making a counterattack to take cities very difficult, and not very useful because these cities are so far from my capital.

 

[Moo]

It's hard to get the Ancient Age down to a science since there are so many variables, and a lot of it has to do with luck too. I look at it this way, if you are down by 2-3 techs at the end of the Ancient Age, then you are in good shape. It's supposed to be an uphill climb in the beginning, otherwise, it'd be too easy.

I try not to build too many cities before I goto war with my neighbor. 3-4 cities should be plenty, and you want to start early before the AI start connecting their cities to iron and horses. I like swordsmen because once I get iron, I can upgrade my warriors and have a formidable little force right at the AI's door in a hurry. Also, don't fight everyone all at once, especially in the beginning. Since you want to defeat the first AI as quickly as you can. You don't want to get bogged down fighting on multiple fronts and end up getting very little out of all the fighting. And don't worry too much about having a little empire. The vast majority of your production come from your core cities anyway, having too many cities will only distract you by having to divert building settlers and moving workers there to develop them, and they don't give you much in return since corruption and waste is so bad under Despotism. Also, try not to fight wars with far away opponents, since it is not very practical early on. By the time your troops get there, they are out numbered and probably obsolete already. I usually trade with them early on and they don't bother me too much, but if they do happen to demand stupid at an inopportune time, I'd just give it to them. Most of the time I think they just demand your territory map or something, and that's no big deal.

 

[Captain Sexual]

I'm curious as to why so many forum members disregard monarchy as a government type.....I thought it is quite useful early-mid in the game as returns(money & science)/control over populace and ability to fight are all OK - comments?

 

[Grotius]

I'm interested in hearing people's views on the timing of a switch out of Despotism to some other government. How big should one's cities be? If most of my cities are under size 6, it seems that I make more cash sticking with Despotism than switching to Republic or Monarchy. What's the ideal average city size for switching? 8?

 

[Hawkx9]

I'm finding more and more that this question is a catch-22 and is dependant on the game situation.

Yes, large cities are required to flurish in Republic, yet because of the food penalties in Despotism it is hard to grow all of your cities above size 6 before the switch, especially if they're not adjacent to a fresh water source.

Also, a 100% corrupt, small, distant city in Despotism may only be 60-70% corrupt when above size 6 in Republic, making it possible to build a few improvements or the Forbidden Palace.

Granted I'm only an average player (Regent), but in my next game I'm going to try to contain myself to only a small number of cities before the Republic switch. That way I will save time nurturing those distant cities, spending more time building improvements for my less corrupt center, hopefully making the switch to Republic sooner and more effectively. Only when I have my Republic running smoothly will I branch out further.

And, of course, it all depends on if you've received a Leader from fighting, in which case you can plop down a FP no problem. It all depends on game situation.

 

[BillChin]

To summarize my thoughts:

Despotism
Pros:good for war. Can rush projects using population. Four units per town. Two military police are useful for happiness.
Cons: limit to two production on many squares. Low gold. Low research.
Despotism is usually the government I stay in until after the first war phase is over. As to when to switch, I have found Republic, Monarchy and Democracy to be valid options depending on the game situation. If you can anticipate a period of peace and have three or more luxuries, Republic or Democracy are good choices. If war is expected and/or you have one or two luxuries, Monarchy may be the better option. Staying in Despotism has its merits, but you can not get three food or three shields from most of the map. I think the key in timing the switch is how well irrigated and mined your empire.

Monarchy
Pros: no war weariness. Full production from hill top mines and irrigated grassland. Three military police help a lot with big cities.
Cons: Higher corruption than other forms. Low gold. Low research. With Monarchy, it is near impossible to keep up with research the on higher game difficulty levels.
Monarchy is good for a very early switch if there is open land, because it does not take much tech to rush to Monarchy. Monarchy is the choice for wars using Knights. Monarchy can still be viable in the modern age depending on how an empire is constructed.

Republic
Pros: commerce bonus yields high gold and research. War weariness is a problem but less than Democracy.
Cons: No unit support means you need a lot of high pop cities with low corruption to pay for everything. No military police means you need several luxuries and/or wonders to boost happiness for big cities.
Republic is well suited for a time of peace after the Ancient age wars are over. With Universal Suffrage and Police Stations, Republic can be a good war time government.

Democracy
Pros: the best peace time government with high gold, high research, 50% production bonus, and the lowest corruption (though still very high in big empires).
Cons: War weariness is deadly. Same deal with happiness as Republic because of the lack of military police, so you need many luxuries and/or wonders to help.
Democracy is the place to be during peacetime. Mutual Protection Pacts are risky as War Weariness can set in very quickly.

Communism
Pros: Four military police. Some unit support. No war weariness. Superior spying.
Cons: Blanket corruption is often 66% in large empires. Police stations and courthouses are required in every production city. Gold and research are very low compared to Republic or Democracy.
Communism is decent for modern warfare or if a player lacks enough luxuries for large cities. It is difficult to keep up with tech and gold on higher difficulty levels.

 

[eyrei]

To expand a little on Billchin's excellent analysis:


Despotism: One of the major problems with despotism is the unhappiness pop-rushing causes in your cities if you switch to republic or democracy. For this reason, if you rushed a lot, monarchy may be a better choice for your next government to calm your people down before you move to a representative government.

Monarchy: If you built a large army under despotism, it is advisable to make sure several of your cities are pop 7+ before switching to monarchy. Otherwise, you lose two military support per city when you switch, which may be the opposite of your intended effect. Monarchy can be very effective in the industrial age if the world is very violent. After you build hospitals, your cities pay for 8 units each. Also, you do not have to deal with unhappiness caused by pop rushing like in communism.

Republic: Republic is probably a better government than democracy if your empire is not that large, because the decrease in corruption will be negligable. Also, war weariness is significantly less, and if you build universal suffrage and police stations, it is almost non-existent. I reiterated that, if you pop-rushed a lot in despotism you may not want to go immediately to republic (or democracy) unless you have access to many luxuries.

Democracy: Best for large empires in a peaceful world. The worker productivity bonus is overkill for industrious civs, particularly after the discovery of replaceable parts.

Communism: Communism is a government that is only really useful (as compared to monarchy) if your empire is huge, and you have already built the forbidden palace. Pop-rushing at this point in the game can be useful, but it takes about 3 population points to rush most military units, as opposed to 1 in the ancient age. The four military police essentially counters the resulting unhappiness, but the loss in income until the population grows back is sometimes significant. In almost all cases, I prefer monarchy to communism for war-torn worlds.

 

[Hawkx9]

Exactly what are the effects of pop-rushing in Despotism? Yes, it causes unhappiness, but no where have I read its <b>exact</b> effects.

For instance, is one citizen made unhappy for each pop-rush? For how long? What if the cities is only size 1 and you've rushed continually, every third turn, for many turns? Does that one citizen remain unhappy for 20, 40, 60 turns?

I guess my question is: how long does each pop point remain unhappy? And does the size of the city matter?

 

[Moo]

They don't tell you what the exact formula is for calculating population rushes. The more you rush, the more unhappy people there will be and from the experience in my current game, the effects of unhappiness lasts for a long long time. I find it more useful to disband the city after the government switch and rebuild anew. Before you know it, you'll have a larger and more productive city in a very short time. Here is what I did in my current Deity game. I built 3 cities near a flood plain. The cities aren't too far from my capital, but far enough away under Despotism to not be very useful. The cities are to serve as slave camps for making military units and since I don't plan on growing it past 3 population, I built them 2 squares away from each other, I also made sure I built in the desert square so I don't waste any valuable flood plains. With the exception of barracks and granaries, I build no other city improvements. I rush whenever I reach population 3 in those cities. At the same time, in my core cities, I build money and science improvements preparing for Despotism to Republic switch when I feel I have a sizeable Rider army to sustain my military campaigns for a long time to come.

 

[Moo]

Originally posted by Captain Sexual
I'm curious as to why so many forum members disregard monarchy as a government type.....I thought it is quite useful early-mid in the game as returns(money & science)/control over populace and ability to fight are all OK - comments?

Monarchy is good if you don't find the need to utilize population rushes. I feel it is a viable government under all levels except Deity. You are almost forced to rush for troops because when the AI builds a city and it is the only city it has, it gets something like 10 free units on Deity. I typically do not like to population rush simply because it almost permanently messes up your city. If I am going to do it, I am gonna milk it for all its worth and disband the city afterwards. So, I'd switch to Monarchy whenever I get the chance on all levels but Deity.