How would you improve the "weakest" UU's?

[Bongo-Bongo]

After reading several threads that have had complaints about weak UU's. I wondered how other forum members would improve what in their opinion, are weak UU's. Here's what I would do:

Quecha: Replace Axeman instead of Warrior. +25% vs Archery units instead of 100%. +50% vs Melee units. Strength 5, Movement 1.

Keshik: Replace Knight instead of Horse Archer. Ignore terrain movement costs. Immune to first strikes. 1 first strike. Strength 11, Movement 2. Requires horses.

Jaguar: +25% vs Melee units. +25% jungle defence. +10% city attack. Strength 5, Movement 1.

Musketeer: +25% vs Mounted units. +10% city defence. Strength 9, Movement 2.

 

[Xanikk999]

I would give jaguars 6 str and +50 vs melee and +10 city attack.

The vs melee represents how sharp thier obsidian blades are.

 

[sydhe]

I'd put the jaguars under bronze working rather than iron working and leave them resourceless.

 

[picardathon]

The Keshik is awesome, but
Navy SEAL: Replace Mech. Infantry instead of marine, 32 strength, combined bonuses of mech inf's and marines.

 

[tombeef]

I would make them more powerful.

First off, I think Keshik and Quecha are fine as they are. Navy SEAL is ok, it just comes too late.

Jaguar is too weak, I never use them. I like the jungle defense idea, but you also need another improvement, perhaps strength.

I don't like the Phalanx much either, they're too defensive for my tastes.

 

[jimbob27]

I'd change the jaguars jungle defense bonus into a level 2 woodsman and allow them to ignore the defense bonus enemy units get from woods+jungle. I'd also make them cost 30 hammers instead of 35.

 

[Gumbolt]

I think the Key point about the Jaguar is that it is does not need iron. Trouble is giving strength 5 makes people compare it to a axeman rather than the swordsmen. The 10% city attack (like the swordsmen) will make it slightly more useful than the axeman when attacking cities with archers but weaker than the swordsman on attack by the reduced strength.

I wouldnt give the Jaguar +50% vs melee as the axeman already has this. Why merge swordsman and axeman? No one would produce the axemen once Ironworking was discovered. A UU should not openly replicate 2 units.

The alternative is to make the Jaguar comparable to the axeman not requiring copper. Would this be too big advantage in the early game though. I could see some very early Jaguars rampaging across the map when perhaps you wouldnt normally of linked up all your cities to copper so fast. you could be chopping jaguars after your first worker like a quechua rush but attack 5 instead. That would be lethal if it didnt require copper.

Perhaps give the unit a chance of first strike, woodsman bonus on production or +25% against mounted? With a barrack that would make the unit very useable but not needing Iron might over power the unit mobility wise so early on.

A more suitable change would be to make it a warrior unit strength 3. This would put it at par with the civ 3 rating of the unit.


Hmmm food for thought.

 

[Watiggi]

Some things to ponder on with regards to the Jaguar: You a) get Bronze Working on the way to Iron Working which gives you Slavery - where slavery was Monty's way, b) the Aztecs generally start in the jungle (I have never encountered them not starting there), c) the Jaguar doesn't need any iron - so every city can build them connected or not, d) the Jaguar cost 35 hammers, which after few turns of building, effectively allows them to be pop rushed right away (slavery...Monty...). With the Police State (from the Pyramids), the Jaguar can be built with one population point, e) pop rushing uses no hammers - so the city can build the Jaguar hammer free, f) the city doesn't require any resources of any kind to make them - allowing the Aztecs to exist and defend itself within a purely jungle enviroment without the need to build tile improvements including roads. Effectively a lone unconnected city in the middle of the jungle can pop rush a Jaguar if needed. Remember, Jaguars are the Aztec equivilent to the swordsmen city killer.

I played a Keshik pillage strategy on a small map where I pillaged all of the civs quickly in order to prevent them from getting iron, copper, horse or ivory (and anything else including farms and cottages) so that I could keep the advantage: All the other civs could only build archers and warriors for the duration of the game )) while I built myself up and conquered them.

When the Aztecs got Iron Working all that changed. They could whip the Jaguars out rather quickly. Especially when the Aztecs got the Pyramids and switched to Police State (fav civic for Monty) - that made it worse. The fact that they didn't need roads in order to build them meant that they could mass produce them in all of their cities thus creating an army quickly, even though they were crippled. My units got over run with Jaguars. I won eventually, but you get the idea.

The Jaguar is the strongest unit that doesn't require resources until the longbowmen (which can be a long time if a pillaging strategy is used). It effectively makes the Aztecs immune to the pillaging strategy. It also allows them to build an army without the need for empire infrastructure, whether with resources, roads or with hammer yield. The empire can build its army soley from a jungled enviroment. In a resonably normal enviroment, it can mass produce them without needing hammers, resources or the cities being connected - and these are the units that are used to take over cities!

I can see why they were given less strength, otherwise they would be too powerful. Beeline it to iron working, build farms and pop rush/hammer build them. You will have quickly built a large army of city killers. It takes 2 experience points to get them to Combat II, which is the equivilent in strength to a normal swordsmen. Build a barracks and then make them and you will essentially have a swordsman. They are more powerful than you think.

Watiggi

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I'd say for the Jags the best thing would be either change the 35 to 30 cost Or change the +10% to +15% or +20% City Attack
(I'd probably make the Jungle Bonus apply in Forest too, just to make them less terrain dependent)

 

[BCLG100]

id give jags 2 movement points regardless of terrain.

 

[FakieB]

2 movemant points would def make the aztecs more attractive for play!

 

[jimbob27]

.

I wouldnt give the Jaguar +50% vs melee as the axeman already has this. Why merge swordsman and axeman? No one would produce the axemen once Ironworking was discovered. A UU should not openly replicate 2 units.

Hmmm food for thought.

Thats why i think they should just be made even cheaper. At the moment they're 1/6th weaker, but only 1/8 cheaper... which doesn't seem right for a UU. If they cost 30 hammers, and had the jungle defence replaced with something more useful, then they'd be a very useful unit. Sure its great to build them if you don't have iron... but if you DO have iron, it feels like you're being penalised by not being able to build the more effective unit.

 

[pigswill]

What about having masonry as a prereq for Jaguars given that they don't need metal and use obsidian.You'd remove them from bronze-working for slavery/chopping but would still be more accessible than iron working.

 

[Watiggi]

I just played a game and got my fastest conquest victory (1640bc) using the Aztec Jaguar. How I did it:

1) Dual game, lakes, normal speed, noble.
2) Build city, use scout to find other civ. Start building a barracks.
3) Beeline to Iron Working first.
4) Switch to Slavery when you get Bronze Working.
5) After barracks, build warriors (or anything else except a settler/worker).
6) Once you have Iron Working, cancel the current build and switch to building a Jaguar.
7) When you have put enough hammers into the Jaguar so that it costs 1 population, pop rush to finish it.
8) Repeat step 7 until your population is back to 1. Dont worry about the unhappiness.
9) Once you have at least 3-4 Jaguars, go and attack the other civs capital - not the other city (cities).
10) Once you capture the capital, keep it. Move your units to the next city.
11) When you can build in the new city, start building a Jaguar.
12) Again, when the unit costs 1 population point, rush build it (just like step 7).
13) Repeat step 12 with this new city until it is back to 1 population.

NOTE: Up to this point, I haven't built any workers or any settlers. When I captured the other capital, I got another city and a worker.

To extend this strategy, keep doing this. Raze small cities, keep high population cities and pop rush the jags and move on. You could move the civ into a farm/specialist system if needed to keep pop rushing them when needed. Monty has the spiritual trait so there wouldn't be a problem with switching between Slavery and the Caste System. Also, because he has Mysticism, he can get religions quickly. You could then spread them quickly, make temples everywhere (at half price) and then have priest specialists, giving you a good foundation to build on.

What about having masonry as a prereq for Jaguars given that they don't need metal and use obsidian.You'd remove them from bronze-working for slavery/chopping but would still be more accessible than iron working.

As this strategy suggests, I think they are meant to exist in line with Slavery. I mean it is Monty after all and Slavery works well with the Jaguar. I think the strength of the Jaguar, along with the Slavery civic and that the Jaguar doesn't need a resource, plus it's price, makes it a very useful but balanced UU. After exploring this strategy I think it is one of the better balanced UU's. It all most seems as if the Jaguar was designed to be played this way. When you play with this strategy, the Jaguars strength of 5 seems right and well balanced.

I now don't think the Jaguar is weak. It isn't over powered either, but it certainly doesn't need to be changed.

Watiggi

 

[JoeBlade]

The only really problematic one is, to me, the Musketeer. That unit is only marginally better or even worse than other units of the same era (e.g.: Maceman has 8 strength, Knight has 10)
The fact that it's gunpowder-based isn't much of a bonus by itself either. It makes an okay defender as none of the enemy units' bonii are likely to affect the Musketeer (though AIs tend to pick Pinch long before gunpowder appears, unfortunately) What good is 2 movement for a defensive unit though?
Upgrading isn't an option either, which makes matters worse. Gunpowder units with City Raider can be powerful attackers when other civs are still mainly using melee/bow units for defense but that's not even possible with the Musketeer.
To boot, the most effective counter to the Musketeer, i.e. the Grenadier, is RIGHT after Gunpowder in the tech tree and has 3 more strength!

The only possible use I have found for Musketeers are for pillaging. A UU for such a very specific and limited purpose is a waste.

These issues are however not as much related to the Musketeer itself but more to the unit it's based on, the Musketman. Its position in the tech tree makes the Musketman a rather useless unit, and by extension the Musketeer UU as well.
I can't think of a solution other than rearranging the tech tree (ugh) or substantially beefing up both the Musketman AND the Musketeer.

 

[Mr Moron]

I don't think the weaker UUs need to be buffed as much as the stronger ones need to be nerfed, hard. Things like praetorians are obscene they throw any concept of balance right out the window. A UU shouldn just be a nice little bonus(mostly for flavor), not something that a stack of 5 can level an entire civ of near-equal tech levels to the ground without taking any losses.

 

[Danicela]

Keshik: Replace Knight instead of Horse Archer. Ignore terrain movement costs. Immune to first strikes. 1 first strike. Strength 11, Movement 2. Requires horses.

Too powerful.

 

[VirusMonster]

Preatorians back to 7 strength instead of 8, but reduce the building cost of preatorian to be the same of swordsman.

Jaguars need strength bonus to 6, but increase their production cost to be the same as swordsman.

I know 2 units will be so much alike, but I see no other way of fixing the current imbalance.

Quechuas are very strong as they are, I wrote an article on them.

 

[ulsterman88]

The Keshik is awesome, but
Navy SEAL: Replace Mech. Infantry instead of marine, 32 strength, combined bonuses of mech inf's and marines.

i dont think so after all th US army is the biggest user of mechanised units in the world. nOt sure what navy seal should replace though, perhaps give every civ a special forces unit?? or even give USA an F-18 to replace jet fighter

 

[sand]

no unit should be one of the last in line units modern armour or mech since it would make that civ on top for the whole end game