HUGE Medieval Patch

[Morten Blaabjerg]

kobayashi wrote:
how can the inquisition be represented by universal sufferage?

"Acts like a theatre in every city" strikes me as very appropriate -There are a lot of built-in jokes like that... Also, my reasoning is that since holy empires are representations of the great catholic powers of later medieval times (think Spain, France), the inquisition comes along as a wonder that can tame some of the unhappiness problems stemming from increased unhappiness and the cancellation of the great happiness wonders
with Heresy and Peasant Revolt among other factors. (this part of the tree is constructed to give an idea of the uprisings and crises of the late middle ages (and different ways of solving these problems -switching to protestantism will solve all happiness problems, and some financial problems (by the acquisition of church holdings) -but banking, fine arts, colonialism and better trade are another ways to solve some of these problems)

I think banking appeared much later

If banking is basically systems of credit and financing, it was increasingly high business in the 14th/15th centuries, playing a large part in big mercantile ventures and big politics in financing wars etc. -originating with the north italian city trade republics/oligarchies, and the dutch merchant states.

techumseh wrote:
I suggest "bellows" instead of "blast furnace", a 19th century invention.

According to my sources, the blast furnace was introduced in the 14th century, a key metallurgical step for large-scale production of iron (cast iron), used in combination with 'blooming' in the production of armor, and in the development and manufacture of cannon and shot. So I considered it reasonable as a key preq for large scale production of cannon etc. (the first use of cannon appears as early as 1346, IIRC).

Along with the huge demands for metal in armoury and coinage in the 14th/15th century, it contributed to a boom in european mining technologies which made possible further advances in metallurgy.

Here's a quick reference :
http://scholar.chem.nyu.edu/~tekpages/ironworking.html

I think the powering of bellows etc. is accounted for in the advantage of the waterwheel improvement.

However, maybe I should use the blast furnace as a preq for gunnery/firearms instead, and introduce the bombard earlier?

 

[Winterfritz]

Wow. Please finish this extremely soon

 

[Morten Blaabjerg]

Testing things out at the moment. So far everything works fine, tho there's a lot of adjusting to do in the unit/terrain-parameters department, to make the game as challenging and exciting as I'd like it to be. Terrain was imperative in medieval warfare, and so it should be here. Which basically means very slight differences in unit types can make the difference in war

I also discovered I had a handful of techs left over, so I'm thinking, what the hell, I'll extend the tree a bit further into modern times, introducing the frigate, musket cavalry etc. Already I'm leaving the userdefinable tech slots open for use in events, so there's plenty of room. And I still got a handful of slots left in the units file.

 

[Winterfritz]

I would actually recommend that you leave the tech tree finishing where it does now. This is, after all, a medieval mod, so I think it makes the best sense that the most modern stuff you can get is at the very end of the middle ages, the sixteenth century.

For extra units, I think non-buildable horse archers in the slots used for barb uprisings use could work nicely to simulate the constant nomad incursions of the middle ages. If you do decide to end the scenario in the sixteenth century, adding pikemen and hussars would nicely round off the final, 'modern' units set.

If you need anyone to help you playtest , send us an email at winterfritz_21@hotmail.com

 

[Morten Blaabjerg]

Just sent you a VERY ROUGH test version.... as you might see, a lot remains to be tested and changed/adjusted. One of my key ambitions is that I'd like to get barbarian activity and sounds to blend in with the changes of the game. I tried to do that in the tech tree, and included exclusive barbarian units in my units file, but much yet to be done. (note, some units have not even received stats yet in the rules.txt, because I haven't gotten around to them yet).

I will probably have to do a few key changes to the tech tree along the way too. Some things feel a little too slow, and others a little way too flexible. AI players shouldn't get too much leeway by trading a lot of techs too early, so it probably has to be tightened up a bit.

Please give me your feedback, when you find time to take a look at it. And bear in mind that it is very much in the development phase. -but you know about all that.

 

[Winterfritz]

Edit: I just recieved it

Looking forward to this very much

 

[kobayashi]

Morten,

I just realised I made a Luther icon almost identical to yours. Did you get your luther picture from the Encarta Encyclopedia.

p.s. If you played your patch till 1500 and saved it as a scenario, you could make it into an entry fro SDC4

 

[Henrik]

Originally posted by Winterfritz

If you need anyone to help you playtest , send us an email at winterfritz_21@hotmail.com

Me too, Me too!

 

[Morten Blaabjerg]

Koby, I think that image of Luther is very common. I chose the one I found most 'iconographic' of those I could find. I don't know yet about the SDC4, I'll find out if I can find the time to participate. I can use the late part of the patch as a springboard for 15th-16th century scenarios, as I tried carefully to make the late tech tree as challenging and interesting as the early parts, by putting some of the vital wonders there, and a couple of key improvements. But as it is, I get a very busy semester this one, so I'm not sure I'll find time for anything more than finishing up this one, and the Emin scenario.

Henrik, how could I forget you -Its in your mail

 

[Morten Blaabjerg]

Comments, guys? -come on, bring it on, I can take it! -you don't need to play it all the way thru, that would probably be too much to ask in its present state, but I'd like to get some feedback on the feel of pace, visuals and concepts etc. before I make drastic new decisions.

Taking a brief pause from it these days, some real life to attend to. Got a new semester coming up, which is gonna be extremely busy.

Putting together my own course in medieval history these days, which is gonna lay the foundation for my thesis, when the time comes. I plan to do a pioneer research project about the unique linking in european thought between spirituality and rationality, which laid the foundation for the concepts that made possible european technological development and industrialization, as well as the conquest, empire, and domination of other cultures in modern times, and the legitimacy/rightfulness of such. Not many such cross-period studies exist, since historians have traditionally made a sharp divide between medieval times and the modern world. So, not much research has been dedicated to examining the foundation of many such european concepts, that may be problematic even in our times, but developed during the middle ages. Religious conversion, the question of the 'infidels', 'just war', and even simply the rationale that God or faith can be explained rationally, giving birth to the modern sciences and industrialization.

I think its gonna be one blast of a study. Just wanted to share it with you Anyway, it raises a lot of questions, lots of which I have dealt with in the research I've been doing for this civ2 project. I realize there's much difference to history as a research object, and in civ2 terms, where the basic element is that it has to be fun. But I do have an ambition about making an attempt at putting some sense into it, some things that actually explain the changes taking place during the middle ages and early modern times. And I guess I'm not completely finished thinking the groundwork through.

 

[Winterfritz]

Sorry Morten; I only just got back from a 3 day school camp. However, I did manage to get in about half a day of solid play just before I left

Firstly, I'm enjoying it tremendously. I hadn't played just a straight game of civ (ie not a scen) for ages, so it was great to rediscover how much fun the game is at base. But of course your techs/graphics/units etc are all way better than the originals, and also far more fun simply because they are fresh and different. Its like learning to play a whole new game; brings back memories of those heady days when I was first learning the intricacies of civ2

Here are the few (very few) flaws/irritating things I have come across.
- Hills and forest have their usual positions reversed in this mod. I suggest you change them back, so that its easier for people to adapt their own maps to it.
- The abbey terrain is a nice idea, but I'm not sure if thats the best possible use of that slot. In particular, I thought your terrain set could have done with some desert - perhaps replacing the arctic terrain (probably only included in the first place because of your Viking bias )
- I'd love some stats for the siege units and the raiders and berserkers, especially the raiders as one is always getting those from huts and barbs continually spawn them.
- You should check if theres a way to change the game so that a random game starts from ~500 AD and ends in ~1600, as it was a bit confusing playing with knights and chevaliers in 350 BC or 1842 AD.

I like your map, btw; great atmosphere and kinda looks like the maps they made in those days too :b: Apart from its (very few) flaws, this is a hugely fun patch and I'm off to play it more now More comments will be coming.

 

[Morten Blaabjerg]

Good to hear you enjoyed it!

Originally posted by Winterfritz
Here are the few (very few) flaws/irritating things I have come across.
- Hills and forest have their usual positions reversed in this mod. I suggest you change them back, so that its easier for people to adapt their own maps to it.

yeah... you're probably right... the reason I wanted to swap them, was because I wanted rebels to hide in the forests instead of the hills, but its true, it gives a lot of trouble when using ones other maps... which one ought to be able to, with a minimum of fuss. (Although its not very difficult to exchange one type of terrain with another using MapEdit and PSP, very few people probably has the patience for that) -so I guess I'll leave it standard in the patch, and unique to my own scenarios.

- The abbey terrain is a nice idea, but I'm not sure if thats the best possible use of that slot. In particular, I thought your terrain set could have done with some desert - perhaps replacing the arctic terrain (probably only included in the first place because of your Viking bias )

Another concept that I might want to make unique to the hammer scenario. Its a particularly rich terrain, but since the AI doesn't really build new ones (players can transform wilderness terrains to abbeys, with monks), I'm not sure if it makes enough sense at it is. Also, I might want to move the engineers from the monk concept to some type of military engineer available with engineering.

- I'd love some stats for the siege units and the raiders and berserkers, especially the raiders as one is always getting those from huts and barbs continually spawn them.
- You should check if theres a way to change the game so that a random game starts from ~500 AD and ends in ~1600, as it was a bit confusing playing with knights and chevaliers in 350 BC or 1842 AD.

There's a new rules.txt attached which has preliminary stats for those units. The siege towers, however, are intended to be defensive only, like a portable fortress of some sorts hiding other units. Not sure if it works as intended yet, tho.

The timeline will the be the last thing to change. I think I'll include a medievalized standard map of Europe with the patch, with all the correct starting positions for tribes (note I haven't selected which ones to include yet), then set the timeline, and save as scenario. I could then include a couple of different scenarios, one starting raw off in the dark ages, another with later tribes and more preplaced cities and techs, and lastly a latemedieval scen. The scens would be pretty rough, since I'd still like to give people the choice to play freely, but it'll give a good idea of how one can use the concepts (playing, and in using parts for ones own scens)

I like your map, btw; great atmosphere and kinda looks like the maps they made in those days too :b: Apart from its (very few) flaws, this is a hugely fun patch and I'm off to play it more now More comments will be coming.

Thanx Its really good to get some feedback on this. Its true, there's a lot of viking bias in this, since northern european history was my focal point along the way (as opposed to a mediterrenean pov). But I might want to keep some of the concepts unique to my viking scenario, and make the patch a bit more generic (but still keep the angle and attitude) -also, when I get around to altering the text messages, a lot of things will make more sense. Like the crusades starting of with Phi giving an extra advance etc (supposed to pop up a message about Pope Urbans Message delivered in the town of xxxx... all christians must join in the crusades etc...) -There are other such texts that want changing.

 

[Henrik]

Sorry for not replying sooner, my "excuse" is that school just started over here (har börjat på gymnasiet Katedralskolan faktist, som grundades på 1000-talet...) and I've had lots to do.

I have had one game of this mod though and I must say I mostly agree with Jan (this mod is great work ), though I really do wish there was a city.txt so that all AI cities wouldn't be named " "

Also the bishops seems to lack a real role in the game (I thought they would be diplo units).

I also think you should even out the stats some more, an "attack" unit allways loses on defence, etc as it is now.

I think you should contemplate moving the templars to another unit slot, as I was able to get them very early in the game via huts.

Oh and the save file you talked about in your mail wasnt included in the actual zip.

I was a little dissapointed that I couldn't build any "Hammer" units even after building Blood sacrifices (though I only half expected to be able to do so).

(thats AI land on the screen, the cities with names are the ones founded by me, playing as the Danes)

 

[Henrik]

Wow you posted while I was writing

 

[Winterfritz]

I've actually been using a city.txt I've cobbled together from various sources. For most civs its little more than a collection of names from my historical atlases, so don't expect too much accuracy, but it does fill those name fields for the AI with reasonably correct sounding stuff.

I'm slowly filling up the civ slots too. At the moment I have:
English
French
Germans
Danes
Norsemen
Lombards
Poles
Magyars
Italians (ie the Kingdom of Italy, Papal states and Kingdom of Sicily)
Spaniards (perhaps split these into Castilians, Aragonese, etc)
Scots

(I've only been modifying the civs/names for my own games, and as such that list is only my advice for what you could include, Morten.)

I've attached that city.txt file for you, Henrik. We gotta play some MP of this too

 

[Morten Blaabjerg]

Thanks guys I simply used the city.txt from my hammer scenario, but haven't really gotten around to changing most of the txt-files. I'd like the in game messages to 'fit' neatly to the various events of the game.

In addition to the points you raised, here's my own preliminary list of changes to be done next :

* Map Making (Map) not necessary to exchange maps? -seems players can exchange maps without the Map advance... which basically means I need to make a few changes in the tech tree.
* tech tree tightened up (especially in the beginning), research rate is ok I think
* happiness tightened up. happiness improvements should be needed. -done. -global variable set to 8, which makes first happiness problems appear at Diety when cities reach size 3.
* a little more lax resource production, expansion easier, growth better in good terrain. Marketplaces needed for cities > 6
* Settlers a little cheaper -monks used only in Hammer scenario -Military engineers available with Engineering. Anyone got a cool unit icon for this one?
* unit succession cleaner, max 5-8 units available at a time, especially ships
* viking raiders upgrade to heretics or similar... drakkars and knarrs obsolete with carracks or similar
* wonders a little cheaper and more urgently needed/harder to get (tree tightened up)
* road multiplier considered up = move 6 for horse units, ships changed accordingly

 

[Winterfritz]

Those all sound very good, esp. the higher level of unhappiness. I just remembered I played all my games on deity and yet didn't get unhappy citizens till cities reached about size 7 or higher.

I will miss the monks though, I thought they went very well in the mod (although settlers probably should be cheaper). Perhaps just move the monks higher up the tech tree, to go with the papal reform techs?

 

[Morten Blaabjerg]

Yes... changing the happiness makes quite an impact on the game, since the churches and cathedrals are among the most expensive improvements in upkeep. (brothels are cheaper but cause more rats to appear (pollution)). So it makes trade urgent.

By this time, the fundamental phase of expansion should have been made, so there is enough cities to trade with, and roads to be built, sea routes discovered etc. And proper wars to be fought, rather than the small skirmishes of the early game. If, say settlers are as cheap as 2 rounds of production (half price), I think that will help a little on the dynamics of the game.

I'll still use the monks and abbeys for my hammer scenario, where I can limit off parts of the tech tree for the specific tribes (i.e. the concept being that viking tribes remain comparatively primitive but militarily powerful, until they decide to trade techs with the christian empires, which basically makes viking weaponry go obsolete). But for this patch, they don't work very well. They are supposed to represent something like the great benedictine expansion of the early middle ages, but are simply too powerful too early. Engineers will make more sense, since they will primarily be useful in constructing roads and fortresses in siege situations etc. in the later game.

BTW, how well do you think the AI is in defending its cities without city walls being available until halfway up the tree? -I noticed its very good at building the fortresses (as usual), but I didn't see it use them really for anything purposeful. Instead I was able to position my units in their fortresses without any fighting. Did any of you stage some organized fighting?

During one of my games, I was able to conquer a couple of AI cities, but it was a bit of a lucky punch (getting chevaliers from a hut), and I wasn't able to keep them, when they stroke back.

 

[Morten Blaabjerg]

BTW, I know why you couldn't build those hammers, Henrik. It's an error in my tech tree. I need to put Roc (rocketry) in before Pagan Cult in the tree; only tribes that have both advances, and Blood Sacrifices have been built, can produce hammers.

 

[Jonicro]

Quite a coincidence, have just been playing around with a thought of similar mod in the past week. Anything new on the status of this project?