Humankind - Americans discussion thread

Love the art :love:, like the focus :goodjob:, the EB is OK :) but the EU is more like a joke :lol:.

By the way I am the only one that think that the more american EU should be a bomber like the B-29, B-36 or B-52 ?
We haven't even seen anything really about this era so...I wouldn't call the EU a joke until we've actually seen it in action.

In real life it's a multi role stealth aircraft so if they do a good job with modern warfare it would probably be amazing. Let's reserve our judgment until then.
 
The thing is you are playing as a group of cultures, not as countries, you are not playing as US, you are playing as americans and the history part go all out of window since you can for example go from zulus to americans which is far more tricky to explain than explaining americans as expansionist.

We are playing as Contemporary Americans, not Manifest Destiny Americans.

I would have to say expansionist or aesthete is the best affinity choices for americans. The fact you even yourself say that expansionist is a popular imagination of americans tell that expansionism (not necessarily old colonialism style) is a decent pick. ......Asthete for some reason could change ideology which probably would be more fitting for expansionist cultures like americans and maybe soviets if they also are given expansionist affinity.

I do agree with Aesthetes for Americans, and I'm an advocate of it. As you said, their ability can be considered as ideology-focused.

On the other hand, popular imagination doesn't mean it really happens IRL, it is an imagination after all.
 
Cool.

I like it. And I did use the expansionist ability in Lucy Open Dev and loved it. Taking over a territory from someone else is - if not powerful, then at least - incredibly flavourful. It was just plain fun. Love it. More of it. And balance can be addressed, if it really was underpowered before. Or maybe the rest was just overpowered?

The art is less current than I imagined, but okay, maybe they really center it around 1960 more than 2000? I'd like that. :)
 
Expansionist affinity is a very interesting choice. Personally I was certain they will be Merchant, while Expansionist would go to Soviets. But maybe Soviets are Militarist then?

On another hand, US and USSR are almost the only modern cultures you could describe as sort of succesfully expansionist (huge empire + very widespread global presence and control), so maybe we should have expected this more. China has only achieved some success in this regard in last two decades, while French and British colonial empires died 60 years ago, so those three are not comparable to the constant global presence of US and Russia since 1945.
 
Just to add a dubious information:
according to the Wiki, the Lightning has a range of 20. I guess that‘s also the support range?
 
If expansionist could work with "setting up puppet states", then contemporary Americans would fit very well with expansionists.
 
If expansionist could work with "setting up puppet states", then contemporary Americans would fit very well with expansionists.

I was thinking about this with the Soviets before, of whether them setting up puppet governments for the Warsaw Pact would count as expansionism from a gameplay perspective. To me, it isn't, because they didn't annex the territory, so I don't think the main facet of the Expansionist affinity to get more fame from claiming territories would apply. If it does, though, that would make a bit more sense as to why the Americans didn't get say Aesthete to represent diplomatic influence, or Merchant to represent economic influence, which is how I would think of soft power. If American contributions to the reconstruction of the governments of Cuba, the Philippines, West Germany, Japan, and Iraq following their conquest counts as puppeting, and that counts as expansionism, then I could totally see the affinity from a gameplay perspective.

I feel like what they do with the Legacy Trait will totally define how they spin it. The EU and EQ seem to be more about militarism and the "policeman of the world" shtick, but if the LT is about say ideological pressure vs reconstructing occupied countries vs the Pax Americana and soft power it would make expansionist seem a bit different.
 
Expansionist works for me. Ties into modern day empire building through coalitions, where we dictate, more or less, what issues rise to the level of intervention. Unilateral actions and enforcement with in sovereign nations isn’t literally expansion but it is an expansion of the laws and values of one group over another. What is a government or nation but it’s laws and traditions.

I also feel the art work implies expansionism in regards to space, moon, and mars. No nation has expanded into space as the United States has. It’s the new Frontier and we currently have the greatest influence over it.
 
We are playing as Contemporary Americans, not Manifest Destiny Americans.
As I said before expansionist should not mean just territorial expansion, which worked poorly in terms of gameplay, requiring you total conquest of the map by early modern to gain all possible expansionist fame stars. The game had non territorial ways to expand your influence, ideology and religion but these systems was not used to gain any fame stars at all.

The ability to annex territory as expansionist was probably the most useless affinity ability, very hard to use due to limited scope, it was simply much easier to go to war and simply raise the city centers and build your own outposts.

I do agree with Aesthetes for Americans, and I'm an advocate of it. As you said, their ability can be considered as ideology-focused.

On the other hand, popular imagination doesn't mean it really happens IRL, it is an imagination after all.
I would suggest giving expansionist the ability to change ideology and give asthete something else instead since it seems more fitting with expanionist. I would also make religion and ideological spread count towards expansionist stars, meaning each territoriy could potentially count atleast 3 times towards expansionist fame stars.

Expansionist works for me. Ties into modern day empire building through coalitions, where we dictate, more or less, what issues rise to the level of intervention. Unilateral actions and enforcement with in sovereign nations isn’t literally expansion but it is an expansion of the laws and values of one group over another. What is a government or nation but it’s laws and traditions.

I also feel the art work implies expansionism in regards to space, moon, and mars. No nation has expanded into space as the United States has. It’s the new Frontier and we currently have the greatest influence over it.
Agree, the ability to reach and have influence on a global scale is more what expansionist should be about, which would likely work much better in terms of gameplay.

If expansionist could work with "setting up puppet states", then contemporary Americans would fit very well with expansionists.
Yes that is also true, don't remember if puppets was counted towards expansionist stars.

Cool.

I like it. And I did use the expansionist ability in Lucy Open Dev and loved it. Taking over a territory from someone else is - if not powerful, then at least - incredibly flavourful. It was just plain fun. Love it. More of it. And balance can be addressed, if it really was underpowered before. Or maybe the rest was just overpowered?

The art is less current than I imagined, but okay, maybe they really center it around 1960 more than 2000? I'd like that. :)
I got all 87 fame stars in open dev, 3 in neolithic and 21 in each of the 4 "neolithic non eras" (I don't have a better term to describe them). Expansionist stars was by far the hardest, with militarist comming second, which is amplfied by militarist and expansionist goals don't work well together since expansionist require you to weaken the other players while militarist wants the other players to build units for them to kill. By early modern I had to conquer the whole map to get the fame stars for expansionist, which is just extreme and far beyond what any other fame goal demands, I don't even think you are supposed to conquer the whole map since the ai players kept respawning which allowed me to farm their units for militarist fame stars and there is no way to end the game by controlling the whole map.

The expansionist ability was hard to use due to an limited scope and if you are in a situation which you can use it, you can likely go to war and expand far more. Most other affinites had abilites you could always use and complemented you towards your main fame goal in a better way than expansionist ability.
 
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Lightning? What the heck? Do I miss something in the US army history?
EU of your dreams - expensive as hell and with unique ability "MS-Army edition" - 50% chance of failure.

OK, now for real. I waited for Aircraft carrier. Totally, absolutely emblematic. And merchant affinity obviously. But that is designer choice. I believe in them.
 
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The expansionist ability was hard to use due to an limited scope and if you are in a situation which you can use it, you can likely go to war and expand far more. Most other affinites had abilites you could always use and complemented you towards your main fame goal in a better way than expansionist ability.

Sure, those are all valid balance concerns. I just said I think the ability was very flavourful and hits the right spots. Now imagine the anger if someone used it against you... (if of course it's made less restrictive).

I do also think you may have overplayed the Lucy OpenDev a bit too much if you managed to conquer the whole map. ;-) Sure, it was imbalanced, but can you tell me: Was that fun for you, optimizing everything to eternity? Truly curious. Cause I'm not sure they can provide you with a difficulty level appropriate for you then.
 
Sure, those are all valid balance concerns. I just said I think the ability was very flavourful and hits the right spots. Now imagine the anger if someone used it against you... (if of course it's made less restrictive).

I do also think you may have overplayed the Lucy OpenDev a bit too much if you managed to conquer the whole map. ;-) Sure, it was imbalanced, but can you tell me: Was that fun for you, optimizing everything to eternity? Truly curious. Cause I'm not sure they can provide you with a difficulty level appropriate for you then.
I did only play it like 3 times, in my last game I tried to get all possible fame stars which I managed to do and by far the expansionist stars was the hardest. The only serious optimization I did was to build only one territory cities due to quarter cost and population growth speed was limited to 1 per city, meaning more smaller cities = larger population.
 
Lightning? What the heck? Do I miss something in the US army history?
Yeah a curious choice, F-15 would have been better but not my design

EDIT: just did some reading on the F35 and YEAH ...really shoulda been the F15
 
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I've already said it in the other thread, but I will say it here as well for easy reference:
Regarding the American affinity, after talking to our historian, here's what I can tell you.
We decided to give the Americans in Humankind the Expansionist affinity to represent their status as a major power and their global influence, especially during the Cold War with their rivalry with the Soviet Union. While many have made solid arguments that Aesthete and Merchant would be excellent candidates to represent their cultural and economic influence, we settled on the Expansionist affinity for gameplay considerations in the context of the full roster of Contemporary Era cultures.


Now imagine the anger if someone used it against you... (if of course it's made less restrictive).
This is basically the main reason why the implementation is as it is currently. We tested a version in which you did not need to have a military presence in the territory and could just click on the enemy outpost and buy it out. Our testers were "just a little bit" upset when the AI kept snatching away their territories without warning or recourse. The requirement to have an army will probably stay, to serve both as a warning and as something the defender can disrupt, but we may still tweak the specifics (cost, duration, etc.)
 
While many have made solid arguments that Aesthete and Merchant would be excellent candidates to represent their cultural and economic influence, we settled on the Expansionist affinity for gameplay considerations in the context of the full roster of Contemporary Era cultures.
Do this mean there will be an industrial mechant, I know Franks was changed to Asthete, which was previously lacking in medieval. I think many expected that there would not even be an expansionist culture in contemporary, like how there was no asthete in medieval or merchant in industrial.
 
Do this mean there will be an industrial mechant, I know Franks was changed to Asthete, which was previously lacking in medieval. I think many expected that there would not even be an expansionist culture in contemporary, like how there was no asthete in medieval or merchant in industrial.

As Cat said in the other thread : "[...] the primary reason for the change to the Franks was the feedback that many players found them too similar to the Teutons (Expansionist, Heavy Cavalry Unit, religiously-themed quarter)."
 
I've already said it in the other thread, but I will say it here as well for easy reference:
Regarding the American affinity, after talking to our historian, here's what I can tell you.
We decided to give the Americans in Humankind the Expansionist affinity to represent their status as a major power and their global influence, especially during the Cold War with their rivalry with the Soviet Union. While many have made solid arguments that Aesthete and Merchant would be excellent candidates to represent their cultural and economic influence, we settled on the Expansionist affinity for gameplay considerations in the context of the full roster of Contemporary Era cultures.



This is basically the main reason why the implementation is as it is currently. We tested a version in which you did not need to have a military presence in the territory and could just click on the enemy outpost and buy it out. Our testers were "just a little bit" upset when the AI kept snatching away their territories without warning or recourse. The requirement to have an army will probably stay, to serve both as a warning and as something the defender can disrupt, but we may still tweak the specifics (cost, duration, etc.)
I'm curious, could you tell us why you guys went with the F-35? There's been a lot of mixed reaction from what I've seen since it's barely been used (for various reasons), but it is an interesting choice nonetheless. Was it motivated by the desire to have something stealth oriented to help show American air superiority? I honestly want to know instead of want to just say "yeah we should have had the F-15" because I'm interested in your guys' vision for the game. It was something interesting to read up on at the very least so I'd be very excited to hear your reasonings.
 
We decided to give the Americans in Humankind the Expansionist affinity to represent their status as a major power and their global influence, especially during the Cold War with their rivalry with the Soviet Union. While many have made solid arguments that Aesthete and Merchant would be excellent candidates to represent their cultural and economic influence, we settled on the Expansionist affinity for gameplay considerations in the context of the full roster of Contemporary Era cultures.

Thank you (both Cat and the Historian) for the response. This is a reasonable take about USA's influence onto the modern world. Focusing on USA's military power and overall competitiveness during the Cold War would bring something new to the 4x genre - Civ IV and VI have cultured Americans, while III and V has mostly Manifest Density Americans, for instance.

However, there is, sadly, still a dissonance here. The Historian visions American as Expansionist because "their status as a major power and their global influence, especially during the Cold War", which put the emphasis on military strength and diplomatic leverage, a combination of hard power and soft power. The in-game Expansionist, on the other hand, has a gameplay orientation that focuses on claiming territory and having a large area of land. Their ability is about land grabbing, and they can get Fame Stars based on territories.

In a word, the in-game Expansionist ability (mostly land grab and inciting wars) mismatches the Historian's concept of Expansionist (involves soft power expansion). Moreover, if the "Expansionist" in the game does act as what the Historian visions - that is, a hegemon that can have "global influence" - then it would cause conflict with the Aesthete affinity, whose gameplay orientation already focuses on cultural influence. That is not to say Cat stated in the Discord that the Expansionist ability will be stayed at "land grab" because of game engine and production constraints; so the Expansionist won't become what the Historian envisioned it to be in the foreseeable future.

As a result, there is an obvious dissonance between "how the game mechanic works" and "what the concept designers hope the game mechanic is about". This is not good, IMO, as the designers are not going to convey their idea well. For instance, even those who support Expansionist Americans on Reddit and Twitter thought this is because "USA invaded many countries and inciting numerous coups", or viewed the design as a political statement about American Imperialism, instead of reflecting USA's soft power or "global influence".

In any case, I hope the devs can address this dissonance, even if it is hard to balance out. There will always be a mismatch between reality and in game abstraction, and I would say to ease the mismatch out is one of the jobs of the designer - and if the designers can ease them out, it can create a good game.

Personally, in terms of game concept, I would view Americans as an Aesthetic Militarist (or Militaristic Aesthete). We already have designs such as Builder Militarist (Germans), Merchant Builder (Siamese), Aesthetic Merchant (Venetians), etc. and a similar design echoing with the concept of "a major power and global influence" without conflicting with the unchangeable "land grabbing" game mechanic should be possible. Just a personal take though.
 
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