Humankind - Dutch discussion

[CivLuvah]

Just wanting to admire the culture card art again.

Dutch = Rembrandt
Aztec = Codex
Khmer guy = still a mood

 

[Guandao]

D is pretty far down the list, do we can another skipped one like the Aztecs hiding in there?

Unless they tell us, then no.

 

[mitsho]

The modern era Netherlands will get the Polder emblematic quarter then... ;-)

Seriousoy though, I like that they keep "infrastructure on water" out for the moment. They can add it later together with the Chinampa and other stuff. Seems to make sense in a DLC as a distinct category.

If they add it later to the culture, good as well. I hate the effect that vanilla civs don't change in civilization: these are the biggest empires, yet they end up weaker than later additions. Rome just was more important than the Mapuche. Period.

These later OP civ often do something really unique, like the Polder. But maybe such infrastructure should be available to all cultures? Because they kinda are in history. Infrastructure like this is so dependent on geography that that is what should trigger them as well. You can always have better polders for the Dutch..

So yeah, happy with that reveal, even if I want to point out that naming something East Indian in a world without India is a bit strange. This is also true for any other name though as well. And Humankind will have a India, as Harappa and/or Maurya are likely to appear. It might not make sense, or the East India Company will trade in fur hats or silver, but that's cool as well. In the worst case, I just imagine the company is a joint venture of the East and India families.

 

[conorbebe]

I still think "early modem" sounds incredibly clunky, but oh well.

The art and culture card on display here is very nice! I guess this representation is fine? Honestly, don't really know much about modern history so I was expecting to see polders here just because they're what the Netherlands have in Civilization.

Starting with a "D" seems to suggest no Ashanti Empire, which is a shame. Inca next week?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

So yeah, happy with that reveal, even if I want to point out that naming something East Indian in a world without India is a bit strange. This is also true for any other name though as well. And Humankind will have a India, as Harappa and/or Maurya are likely to appear. It might not make sense, or the East India Company will trade in fur hats or silver, but that's cool as well. In the worst case, I just imagine the company is a joint venture of the East and India families.

I also imagine that India will appear in the Modern Era.
Besides the official name in game will just be called V.O.C. Warehouse.

 

[CivLuvah]

Starting with a "D" seems to suggest no Ashanti Empire, which is a shame. Inca next week?

Who knows, they might be adding it later, considering that they're not releasing cultures in strict alphabetical order

 

[Zaarin]

I still think "early modem" sounds incredibly clunky, but oh well.

It's the preferred term in history these days as it emphasizes the continuity of history rather than the break that Enlightenment historians liked to flatter themselves happened after the Medieval period (a break that doesn't have a lot of historical support: virtually everything said Enlightenment historians believed was unique about the Renaissance had its roots in the Middle Ages).

 

[Gwydden]

It's the preferred term in history these days as it emphasizes the continuity of history rather than the break that Enlightenment historians liked to flatter themselves happened after the Medieval period (a break that doesn't have a lot of historical support: virtually everything said Enlightenment historians believed was unique about the Renaissance had its roots in the Middle Ages).

Besides the "Renaissance" being basically a made up concept, or at least wildly exaggerated, it's typically considered to start in the fourteenth century, still decidedly medieval times, and it's an Eurocentric—arguably Italocentric—term.

 

[Zaarin]

Besides the "Renaissance" being basically a made up concept, or at least wildly exaggerated, it's typically considered to start in the fourteenth century, still decidedly medieval times, and it's an Eurocentric—arguably Italocentric—term.

Not to mention that the Italian Renaissance was arguably less important even for Europe as a whole than the Renaissance of the Twelfth Century or the Carolingian Renaissance a couple centuries before that.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The Harappan/Indus Valley Civ with it's 'Runner', which actually is an Improved Scout as nearly as I can make out, is the nearest thing to a 'civilian' Emblematic Unit we've seen so far, and that one is Made Up - we don't have a clue about any military or non-military units from the Indus Valley Civ, except that they had trade connections in several directions and the first known extensive irrigation systems and so presumably were pretty good at trade and irrigation. Trade implies exploration in at least finding sources and markets, but it's a stretch.
By contrast, the Dutch Fluyt is both well known historically and has some very specific attributes: it was one of the most efficient sailing freighters ever built, in terms of amount carried for lowest cost in Gold and manpower. I suspect that the Humankind 'Early Modern' Dutch are going to be able to pull more Gold out of their sea-going trade routes than anybody else, and possibly even make a profit on trade no one else can touch - as in, be able to establish longer sea trade routes or more of them than anyone else in their Era.

And, parenthetically, this may be the first of two times that the Fluyt appears in a new game within the next 12 months or so: Port Royale 4 is coming out in about two months, and the Dutch Fluyt was my favorite freighter in previous editions of that game - gave a better return on trade routes than anything else you could float, as long as you kept it protected from pirates and privateers!

Dutch East India Company (Vereenigda Oostindische Compagnie - which is where the V.O.C. in the Emblematic Quarter comes from) Warehouse or 'Factory' as it was termed at the time, is the first Quarter that I think we've seen that may also be Unique: historically, they were built Outside of the Netherlands more than inside. So, is this an Emblematic Quarter that can be built outside Dutch territory?

IF so, I smell detailed Trade Agreements in the Diplomatic game to make the Dutch Faction work . . .

 

[Krajzen]

Naming "an era between feudal and industrial" in games like this "renaissance is so silly on so mamy levels lol.
1) Eurocentric
2) Not just eurocentric, but also doesn't make sense outside of very specific IRL "canonical" timeline of "late medieval Italy having cultural tendencies of rediscovering Greek - Roman culture"...
3) ...unless you understand the word "renaissance" in more general way as an exceptional flourishing of culture (Carolingian renaissance, Timurid renaissance etc etc), in which case it it still doesn't make sense in the context of "universal global era"
4) Even accepted in the orthodox way, the term doesn't even cover 17th and 18th centuries, which is the very purpose of that era.

Thus, I prefer Early Modern over Renaissance. Although personally I'd consider also Exploration Age (the general theme being traversing and connecting all oceans and continents by the global civilization in this era) and Enlightenment Age (as in "the emergence of scientific method and capitalism, being prerequisite for industrial age").

 

[durfal]

Dutch East India Company (Vereenigda Oostindische Compagnie - which is where the V.O.C. in the Emblematic Quarter comes from) Warehouse or 'Factory' as it was termed at the time, is the first Quarter that I think we've seen that may also be Unique: historically, they were built Outside of the Netherlands more than inside. So, is this an Emblematic Quarter that can be built outside Dutch territory?
IF so, I smell detailed Trade Agreements in the Diplomatic game to make the Dutch Faction work . . .

It's probably based on this building: Het Oost-Indisch Huis (The East Indies House) in Amsterdam:

But there were warehouses everywhere on the Canals in Amsterdam (the whole reason the canals were build was so the ships could bring stuff to the warehouses).
The "Factorijen" in overseas places all over Africa, the America's and Asia were local places for the Dutch to exchange products among European companies, local populations, and the colonies that often started as a factory with warehouses. Usually these factories had larger warehouses to fit the products resulting from the increasing agricultural development of colonies. Famous ones were in Cape Town, Mocha (Yemen), Calicut (India), Colombo (Sri Lanka), Taiwan, New Amsterdam (later New York) and in Deshima (Japan).

 

[grug]

Wanted to throw in some baseless speculation on the Legacy Trait and Emblematic Abilities:

LT: World Primacy - +x% money per luxury resource
They seem to be keeping these pretty simple. Would encourage the Dutch to go hard on the luxury good trade to be an economic powerhouse, as in real life.

EU: Fluyt - trader unit that is half cost to build or replace, with +x gold per turn
This is sort of a stretch, but in one of the early videos of the tech tree "trade insurance" was an unlocked ability. I don't know why they would need trade insurance unless there is something to insure against, like storms or frequent raids. In that case being able to cheaply replace trader units would be useful. Could also be a troop transport ship, as there is not yet evidence of an actual "trader unit" AFAIK.

EQ: VOC Warehouse - +x gold per adjacent market or harbor quarter, able to link non-adjacent territories to settlements when built, +1 merchant slot on settlement
This is even more of a stretch, but from the videos shown only adjacent territories have been linked. Linking overseas territories to a well-developed city would make them prime targets for resource exploitation, which would match with both my proposed bonus by gathering luxury resources, and with actual Dutch colonialism.

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

Seriousoy though, I like that they keep "infrastructure on water" out for the moment. They can add it later together with the Chinampa and other stuff. Seems to make sense in a DLC as a distinct category.

Speaking as a layman, polders or other "aquatic Quarters" that create land are probably more difficult to implement properly from a technical point as well, as they have to modify the terrain instead of just adding buildings and textures on it. So I'd rather we have the time to do it properly and perhaps use it for multiple quarters than rush it for just one Emblematic.

New Amsterdam (later New York)

And there's that (in)famous song about renaming cities stuck in my head again...

 

[Zaarin]

And there's that (in)famous song about renaming cities stuck in my head again...

That's nobody's business but the Turks'.

 

[need my speed]

And there's that (in)famous song about renaming cities stuck in my head again...

Civilization III had this interesting city name, for if you were the Ottomans and ran out of city names:

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Civilization III had this interesting city name, for if you were the Ottomans and ran out of city names:

This is the sort of thing that caused me to start keeping files of city names for Civs that tend to be light on the numbers, or simply have city lists that are execrable.
Like Mayan lists that include modern Spanish site names (yes, I'm looking at YOU: Six-Sky!)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

This is the sort of thing that caused me to start keeping files of city names for Civs that tend to be light on the numbers, or simply have city lists that are execrable.
Like Mayan lists that include modern Spanish site names (yes, I'm looking at YOU: Six-Sky!)

At least the citizen names don't turn Spanish in the Modern Era, like the Aztecs.
They go from Moon Jaguar to Bird Jaguar.

 

[need my speed]

This is the sort of thing that caused me to start keeping files of city names for Civs that tend to be light on the numbers, or simply have city lists that are execrable.
Like Mayan lists that include modern Spanish site names (yes, I'm looking at YOU: Six-Sky!)

I have made a new city list for almost every civilisation in the game, because I was making one for my own game anyway. I like to pick the native names - 'Roma' instead of 'Rome', for an obvious example - and, as you say, some of the Mesoamerican (and Iroquois - please name them Haudenosaunnee, Amplitude) city names are just horrible. I think I based my lists on Civilization IV, then researched every single place in there, and added cities from III, V, and VI, after researching each of them, if they were not on my list yet. It took quite a lot of time, and for most civilisations (the most obvious examples being ancient Mesopotamia and native Americans) I also did my own research to add entirely new cities not present in any of the games.