Humankind Game by Amplitude

[Acken]

Haven't really followed the game development. I have a civ itch to scratch and civ6 really didn't do it. I like what I've seen so far.

 

[Krajzen]

Haven't really followed the game development. I have a civ itch to scratch and civ6 really didn't do it. I like what I've seen so far.

I am certainly not going to do what I did for civ5-6 expansions and obsessively getting to know every little bonus and aspect of a game before its release. Looking from a current perspective, I am pretty sure it was damn mentally unhealthy, a sort of compulsion or perfectionist work - like approach to video game which should be a spontaneous adventure.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I am certainly not going to do what I did for civ5-6 expansions and obsessively getting to know every little bonus and aspect of a game before its release. Looking from a current perspective, I am pretty sure it was damn mentally unhealthy, a sort of compulsion or perfectionist work - like approach to video game which should be a spontaneous adventure.

Entirely agree with this. It seems like some people put a lot of work into analyzing the game long before it's released, which actually decreases their enjoyment of it once it arrives. For one thing it seems like it would be easy to fall into a theory of how to play the game which limits your exploration of the options once it arrives.

 

[Abegweit]

Haudenosaunee have no possible ancient/classical precedessor though, only medieval (Missisipi civilization).

Of course they do. Do you think that medieval civilisations can suddenly appear out of nowhere? The ancient/classical predecessor of the Haudenosaunee was mesoAmerican, just like the predecessors of the English were in the Mediterranean and the Middle East.

Much of the history of the civilised world is about farmers taking food kits from their regions of origins to other places.

 

[ost]

Do you think that medieval civilisations can suddenly appear out of nowhere?

to be fair to @Krajzen I am sure that statement should not be interpreted as the Haudenosaunee spontaneously blinking into existence without ancestors - in the civilizational equivalent of a virgin birth - but that their ancient and classical origins are somewhat more difficult to trace, and from a game design perspective, challenging to include in Humankind (as they require an affinity, legacy bonus, emblematic unit, and emblematic quarter). The original statement was made in the context of including civilizations to form a (relatively) contiguous cultural lineage - from the "ancient age" onward.

 

[Krajzen]

Of course they do. Do you think that medieval civilisations can suddenly appear out of nowhere? The ancient/classical predecessor of the Haudenosaunee was mesoAmerican, just like the predecessors of the English were in the Mediterranean and the Middle East.

Much of the history of the civilised world is about farmers taking food kits from their regions of origins to other places.

I meant: precedessor, which is detailed, unique, well researched, cool anough and distinctive enough to be a video game faction in a game like this.
I don't expect Hopewell, Missisipi and Poverty Point to be separate cultures in this game, and neither do I expect Lusatian and Pomeranian ancient cultures to appear alongside Poland.

 

[Abegweit]

I meant: precedessor, which is detailed, unique, well researched, cool anough and distinctive enough to be a video game faction in a game like this.
I don't expect Hopewell, Missisipi and Poverty Point to be separate cultures in this game, and neither do I expect Lusatian and Pomeranian ancient cultures to appear alongside Poland.

Well, the Maya have appeared in the Civ series. While they probably weren't direct ancestors of the Haudenosaunee, they were certainly the cousins of said ancestors.

This being said, it is difficult to view the evolution of these cultures as anything like progress. The Maya built cities and had complicated irrigation systems, roughly the equivalent of Egypt before the Bronze Age, say 3500 BC. The Haudenosaunee had regressed to a village level, more like Turkey in 9000 BC.

In a civ context, they are more like the pre-ancients who settled down in 4000 BC. They never got to the Ancient Era before they were suddenly confronted with Moderns.

Actually I don't see how you can integrate the Haudenosaunee into an era-based concept. We'll see what the developers do.

 

[CivLuvah]

Well, the Maya have appeared in the Civ series. While they probably weren't direct ancestors of the Haudenosaunee, they were certainly the cousins of said ancestors.

This being said, it is difficult to view the evolution of these cultures as anything like progress. The Maya built cities and had complicated irrigation systems, roughly the equivalent of Egypt before the Bronze Age, say 3500 BC. The Haudenosaunee had regressed to a village level, more like Turkey in 9000 BC.

In a civ context, they are more like the pre-ancients who settled down in 4000 BC. They never got to the Ancient Era before they were suddenly confronted with Moderns.

Actually I don't see how you can integrate the Haudenosaunee into an era-based concept. We'll see what the developers do.

I don't think you understood the context here. One thing to note is that the way Humankind depicts era progression is different from how Civ depicts era progression. By "progression" we don't mean technological progression but cultural succession. In Humankind you get to be a different culture/civ per era. So you get to be the Egyptians in the ancient era>Romans in the classical era>Umayyads in the medieval era and so on. In the game, you get to change cultures in the same way you change stuff in an RPG, per era. The way you change cultures has nothing to do with technological progress. Eras are just that, eras - neat markers of time rather than markers of progress. In Civ, by contrast, technological progress is integral to era progress.

What they are arguing is a Haudenosaunee ancient/classical predecessor that's either (a) related to them culturally and/or (b) related to them regionally/geographically, and (c) that's interesting enough to play as a faction (this goes with all cultures in the game). So far there isn't really an archeological culture during the ancient or classical era that fits either one of the criteria. As for why the Haudenosaunee are there, they just happen to be the dominant political power in the Great Lakes region during the early modern era.

 

[Krajzen]

What is the point of wildlife?

 

[CivLuvah]

What is the point of wildlife?

They act as the barbarians in Civ basically. I remember Civ4 had wild animals as barbarians.

 

[FinalDoomsday]

Well the Mammoth and Deer are not aggressive they just wander around but you get rewards for defeating them. I think they said the full game will have predators that will act more like barbarians and attack you.

 

[Siptah]

I would hazard a guess that hunting mammoths is a way to generate era stars in the Neolithic era.

 

[Elhoim]

Yeah, they said they added them so the first scenario wasn't just building and picking up curiosities. I think they should have also added the aggressive wildlife too, as it gave the wrong impression, IMO.

 

[FinalDoomsday]

Yeah you could really mass scouts and go across the map grabbing stuff which I imagine won't be so easy when theres hostile animals roaming around.

 

[Elhoim]

Yeah you could really mass scouts and go across the map grabbing stuff which I imagine won't be so easy when theres hostile animals roaming around.

Plus other civs doing the same thing. And I believe that curiosities don't spawn in territories that are taken, or at least, where anyone has LoS on.

 

[Krajzen]

Do you think Ottomans are going to be Expansionist or Militarist? Honestly, a case could be made for both.

And what district? Hammam, bazaar or something else?

As for the unique unit, I'd be surprised if it wasn't the Janissary

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Do you think Ottomans are going to be Expansionist or Militarist? Honestly, a case could be made for both.

And what district? Hammam, bazaar or something else?

As for the unique unit, I'd be surprised if it wasn't the Janissary

Expansionist or Militarist would both fit, as far as we know about the bonuses attached to each (like, do those bonuses change with Eras so that 'later' Militarists get a different bonus than earlier ones?)

Not sure how either would fit with an Emblematic Quarter of Hammam, or even if a single building like a Hammam would make a good Quarter. On the other hand, the Bazaar as an Market for goods from all over could fit nicely with an Expansionist or Militarist faction that keeps acquiring new regions with different goods/resources in them.

Some day, somewhere, there will be a game with an Ottoman Faction/Civ in it without a Janissary attached to it, but I won't hold my breath . . .

 

[Narcisse]

yes Militarist and Expansionist fit both. IIRC they were expansionist, but in the game, I suspect militarist tag = taking cities (Mongols are militarist). Expansionist is maybe just about converting outpost or territories (fit with Spain) ??? (or vice-versa ? militarist is about ranksacking outpost ? I Just don't know^^)

For Ottomans there is so much choice for EQ, the most "legit" choice is to take a mosque from Sinan (Ottoman "Michelangelo"), he saved Hagia Sofia, studied Byzantine techniques through Hagia Sofia and other Greek buildings, and used these techniques to make impressive buildings (some of the most famous mosque, but some hammam too). So he represented the Byzantine heritage + Ottoman innovation in early modern architecture, and it's part of the Ottoman golden age.
BUT, Mughals have already a mosque, so it will be redundant.

Obv, they builded a lot of hammam, caravanserail and bedesten. If they want to represent the Ottomans "Merchant" aspect with their EQ : the Bedesten is more emblematic of Ottomans than the Bazaar and the Caravaneserail.
And the last possibility is a militarist building, an arsenal, or a sort of Janissary school.

I'm dubious about an "admistrator building" to control and take tax in their territorial possessions (millet), it's too similar to the Persian Legacy trait an EQ.
And actually these administration principles and Janisarries, are inherited from Persians, and some other predecessors (Seljuks,...) from this geographical zone.

For the units, Janissaries are expected because OpenDev outro, but maybe it's their generic unit (I doubt). But Sipahi and Dardanelles Gun stay possible

 

[Revanchist]

I don't plan to play as the Ottomans because I never liked them, but Militarist would be more fitting as they conquered many cities. Expansionist fits more in with the U.S. and Spain, since they founded a great number of settlements.

 

[Krajzen]

I don't plan to play as the Ottomans because I never liked them, but Militarist would be more fitting as they conquered many cities. Expansionist fits more in with the U.S. and Spain, since they founded a great number of settlements.

Expansionist is also about the ability to introduce stability and efficient administration to huge, diverse areas.
A militarist may fight well, but it often takes an expansionist to actually integrate, assimilate and govern these areas for centuries.

Ottomans are one of the best cultures in history to get this affinity, next to Romans and Persians. Six hundred years of extremely multi cultural empire, which was only taken down by the late 19th century emergence of nationalism (otherwise could last even longer). It is also probably the most stable empire in the history of Islam.

Ottoman maximum extent (5 million km2) was comparable with the maximum extent of Rome, and their period of being a powerful global power was comparable with length of such Roman period. Ottoman matters had first priority in Spain, France, Vienna, Poland, Moscow, Morocco, Ethiopia, Yemen and Iran.

Now that I have written it, yeah I think they will get an expansionist affinity (was thinking of militarist before). They are just too good to miss it. Maybe Poland will get militarist, with its meme of land of powerful cavalry.