Taefin
King
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Oh wow, and here I thought 12k science was game breaking!
Humankind Game by Amplitude
- Thread starter AtlantisAuthor
- Start date
Oh wow, and here I thought 12k science was game breaking!
@Onii-chan regarding your screenshot:
As strange as that might sound, I don't think your incredible science output is the major problem. (Almost) All contemporary cultures are completely nuts in their field.
The problem is, at least for me, that science alone can end the game. And that you've usually accumulated enough gold to just stick in science mode forever. This is not true for the other ending conditions.
Soviets one-shot all others, but you still need to fight, fly your units around, pay war score, etc. to end the game with military.
Australians build x districts per turn with the builder ability, but to end the the game with production, you still need the techs for the projects first.
I don't quite see the motivation behind the science ending anyway (the mars mission requires science and production is already there), I assume its just there to avoid late game drag. It seems to go against the general fame rule that being (super) strong in just one area isn't sufficient (except if that area is military, of course).
If you've researched all available techs in the prior eras, what happens is that you just waste your science/turn. Why not the same in the contemporary era? Once you've researched the whole tree you are done with science. You get the three science stars at full score and the extra fame from the late game techs, which is a reward. No need to spam the Swedish/Turkish/Japanese districts in all cities.
As strange as that might sound, I don't think your incredible science output is the major problem. (Almost) All contemporary cultures are completely nuts in their field.
The problem is, at least for me, that science alone can end the game. And that you've usually accumulated enough gold to just stick in science mode forever. This is not true for the other ending conditions.
Soviets one-shot all others, but you still need to fight, fly your units around, pay war score, etc. to end the game with military.
Australians build x districts per turn with the builder ability, but to end the the game with production, you still need the techs for the projects first.
I don't quite see the motivation behind the science ending anyway (the mars mission requires science and production is already there), I assume its just there to avoid late game drag. It seems to go against the general fame rule that being (super) strong in just one area isn't sufficient (except if that area is military, of course).
If you've researched all available techs in the prior eras, what happens is that you just waste your science/turn. Why not the same in the contemporary era? Once you've researched the whole tree you are done with science. You get the three science stars at full score and the extra fame from the late game techs, which is a reward. No need to spam the Swedish/Turkish/Japanese districts in all cities.
Is it really a Fame general rule that you cannot specialize in one thing? You kind of do specialize in one thing only, and that is: being the big, expansive empire. More pop, districts, territories, techs, gold, influence - it all scales with sizez with expansion. That's why there are such extreme fame runaways - if you are good in one of those things, you are probably good in all of them.
It's not like you get a (significant amount of, when compared with above sources) Fame for culture, art, trade, literature, architecture, espionage, religion, diplomacy, colonization, navy, geographic discoveries, tolerance, bravely fighting as an underdog, being small but very densely developed, having small army but still winning, and so on.
There is really only one source of Fame: be a huge expansive beast, covering a lot of land and with a lot of stuff. If history worked like that, then nobody would praise Greeks before Alexander, or Venice, or Netherlands, or Italian city states, or modern Nordic states, or Singapore, or historic influence of Jews, because the only things that would matter would be Big Nominal Size and largest empires.
It's not like you get a (significant amount of, when compared with above sources) Fame for culture, art, trade, literature, architecture, espionage, religion, diplomacy, colonization, navy, geographic discoveries, tolerance, bravely fighting as an underdog, being small but very densely developed, having small army but still winning, and so on.
There is really only one source of Fame: be a huge expansive beast, covering a lot of land and with a lot of stuff. If history worked like that, then nobody would praise Greeks before Alexander, or Venice, or Netherlands, or Italian city states, or modern Nordic states, or Singapore, or historic influence of Jews, because the only things that would matter would be Big Nominal Size and largest empires.
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
This was discussed in testing, and it boils down to the fact that Tall versus Wide is a non-starter in Humankind: 'Tall' play is simply not competitive in the long run. Of the 7 categories of Fame Stars required to advance (and win), all are based on More of Something: more Districts, more Cities, Outposts and attached regions, more enemy units killed, more Population in your own Faction, more Science, Influence and Money accumulated - none of those can be done better by a small, Tall Faction, they all call for more of everything.
This is going to need some serious thought, because it requires a complete change from Quantity (which is numerical, and thus easy for computers and computer-based games to handle) to Quality - of life, of cities, of actions over the 'history' of the game - and that is Subjective and based on Human Desire - which, historically, has changed and which is difficult, to say the least, to quantify well and thus make programmable. Quite simply, what price, or number, do you put on a Beautiful City - and how do you define a beautiful City since its own inhabitants will, historically, change their perception of such between 400 BCE and 2021 CE?
It's not an impossible task - miniatures games have been quantifying Morale for decades, and that factor is at least as slippery as anything that would make a small Faction Famous - but it does require a very different approach to the game and its definition of Victory Conditions.
DLC, here we come!
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
For some reason, out of a dozen test starts with the post-release version of the game, Myceneans have been the most popular First Choice for the AI, with Harappans running a close second. This was not at all what happened in the last pre-release Builds we tested, when Harappans were almost always first choice with Myceneans, Hittites, Olmecs sharing second and third place.
Not sure what has changed in the AI's Decision Tree . . .
NombreyApellido
Warlord
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- Nov 29, 2014
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- 212
hot take warning: it comes down to unrealistic player expectations
some people seem entitled to a fully asymmetric but perfectly balanced game. they want to win at it coming from being dead last and without putting the effort to do the micro. they demand it to be novel yet they don't want to take the time to learn its intricacies. they expect it to suit their playstyle, their cultural bias and their finicky taste without leway for any deviation
they insist on it being out yesterday, fully functional with no issues on their hardware while also being cheap or better yet: free to play and without adds
and if all of these are granted to them, they will still find a way to put it down so they can appear to be like someone in the know by pointing to "optimization" or going into some back-handed plea for attention like "i'm snowballing too hard i may be too good at this game"
not saying that this is anyone case here... but do some five minute browsing over at reddit and you start wishing for the earth rendered unhabitable outcome
some people seem entitled to a fully asymmetric but perfectly balanced game. they want to win at it coming from being dead last and without putting the effort to do the micro. they demand it to be novel yet they don't want to take the time to learn its intricacies. they expect it to suit their playstyle, their cultural bias and their finicky taste without leway for any deviation
they insist on it being out yesterday, fully functional with no issues on their hardware while also being cheap or better yet: free to play and without adds
and if all of these are granted to them, they will still find a way to put it down so they can appear to be like someone in the know by pointing to "optimization" or going into some back-handed plea for attention like "i'm snowballing too hard i may be too good at this game"
not saying that this is anyone case here... but do some five minute browsing over at reddit and you start wishing for the earth rendered unhabitable outcome
I've seen the Myceneans both games, too. My first game only had two AI players, but my second had three--and one of the AI chose to be Greece straight into the Contemporary Era. What's interesting is that this AI (Midas) was also in my first game and definitely chose to progress in that game, which means the AI can choose to transcend indefinitely even without the AI quirk that forces them to do so.
So Reddit as usual.
(I'm actually on the AoE4 Reddit and it's relatively civil, but some Reddits...yikes.)
Onii-chan
King
Agreed. All the late game culture themes are super strong in their own niche, but science just gives you the ability to effectively end the game almost immediately, and since you always know if you're in the lead or not in terms of fame, it's basically an instant free win as long as you're currently in the lead. It's not necessarily a balance issue but more a victory condition issue. Why does finishing the tech tree have to end the game when it just seems to be so much easier to do that quickly if you focus on it than any of the other conditions?
Taefin
King
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I had that many luxuries when I pulled ahead in my last game on Civilization, Carthage > Nubia. Early on being a trader you get access to most of the AI empires first due to trade route visibility, and you have the money to buy everything from everyone. Then people start buying the stuff secondhand from you, and pretty soon that Nubian EQ (gold per trade route) is dropping 50+ gold each.
This is the exact state of my current game with Nubia leading, having conquered cities off their neighbors and with so many luxuries. Do I have any choice but to buy them all?! I’m guessing Nubia is a popular AI pick whoever goes medieval first.
Oh I guess I might have mixed up the medieval trade cultures, pardon I’d that is an error
This is the exact state of my current game with Nubia leading, having conquered cities off their neighbors and with so many luxuries. Do I have any choice but to buy them all?! I’m guessing Nubia is a popular AI pick whoever goes medieval first.
Oh I guess I might have mixed up the medieval trade cultures, pardon I’d that is an error
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Interesting. In my two games, no one chose Nubia. Can confirm early Merchant is a powerful path, though. In the game I just finished, I chose Phoenicia > Carthage. Unfortunately, by the late game I was struggling for Influence; kinda makes me wish I'd chosen another Aesthete somewhere along the line (in addition to the Franks)--or an Expansionist to offset all the cities I founded.
Taefin
King
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Starting Egypt really helped, the small extra influence for early expansion went a long way and it was a breeze to build the EQ. And once I had high production and money it ran away. I got bored and quit and tried again at higher difficulty. Even though I lost the faith game this time, the aksumites were still pretty good (only economy focused choice left when I got there) with 2 gold on tiles and their EU is a cheap 80 production swordsman that lets you just empty your cities onto the battlefield. With enough economy they also upgrade to great swords for a very fast medieval push. Skirmishing with an Early Modern English > Haudenosaunee now and their first group of muskets and swords fell quickly enough
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
ho... but do some five minute browsing over at reddit and you start wishing for the earth rendered unhabitable outcome
Ted Sturgeon, one of the writers of Science Fiction's "Golden Age" back when I was just starting to read the stuff, famously said that "99% of Everything is Crap".
In regards to Reddit, I think he was being optimistic. Went there once, never went back, don't ever intend to: life's too short . . .
Another popular AI choice, I've noticed, specifically Celts > English > Haudenosaunee > Mexico. AI likes Food, apparently.
Taefin
King
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Yeah, sounds like they should introduce a wildcard factor in AI culture choice. The AI doesn’t really utilize the professions that well anyway, so may as well ensure each play is different. Also, why twice the leader AI takes Zulu! Great culture but not really intended for the tech leader.
Elhoim
Iron Tower Studio Dev
I think there's an AI that focuses on that.
Brianstorm
Warlord
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- Jul 5, 2016
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- 185
I think building your own avatar was a mistake, they should double down on historical avatars and make you choose one and even give them their own bonuses. Playing as Napoleonic Babylon/Rome/etc vs Elizabethan Egypt/Greece/etc would give the game more consistency and flair and also give them
easy DLC without having to add cultures in groups of 6.
easy DLC without having to add cultures in groups of 6.
NombreyApellido
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2014
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i was indiferent to the personas idea back when i first played. now i find myself wishing those open dev avatars were included because i kind of miss them after cussing at them for such a long time
for real though, i'd love to have the ability to zoom on avatars when checking their info.... some garments loose a lot of detail in the diplomacy screen compared to the big, rotating preview of the builder utility
for real though, i'd love to have the ability to zoom on avatars when checking their info.... some garments loose a lot of detail in the diplomacy screen compared to the big, rotating preview of the builder utility
