Humankind Game by Amplitude

[Krajzen]

Well, I didn't go to the hospital in the end, not until Wednesday at least.

I like that info about religion. I like the ability to change state religions and suffer civil conflict due to religious diversity within the empire.

And I love the lack of physical religious units. Physical religious units in civ5 are unforgivable offence - so boring, tedious and frustrating mechanic, to move and counter - move them across the map, take and retake cities, and worst of all - it all went into utterly unrealistic direction (like everything in this game).

Religions IRL can spread
a) ...not at all (exclusive or local religions - Judaism, Shinto)
b) By cultural osmosis (Indianisation of South East Asia, Hellenism)
c) By voluntary state - level conversion (baptism of Poland etc)
d) By the gradual conversion resulting from this religion being attractive to people (Christianity, Islam)
e) By missionaries (Cyril and Methody)
f) By the steady stream of merchants (Islam in Indonesia)
g) By force (Christianity, Islam)

But in civ6 it's just option e) (and g) if counting inquisitors)... Everybody who can just founds a religion, and their missionaries literally beat each other to submission like chosen warriors, taking entire world by force. No coexistence, no many faiths in one empire, no state atheism/secular state, but no proper theocracy either, no syncretism, and no resistance from folk pagan religions ("pantheons"). Such a shallow, cartoonish representation of religious struggles across history.

Not to mention the fact, in civ6 every religion is de facto Christianity: universalistic, missionary, agressive and completely exclusionary. Civ6 doesn't allow me to play as proper Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, polytheistic syncretic faiths, secular state, or even Islam with its Dhimmi system of institutionalized (and integrated) religious minorities.

By the way, list of historical religions I'd include in the Humankind:

Spoiler :

Mesoamerican faith - for Olmecs, Maya, Aztec
Islam - for Umayyads, Ottomans, Ghanaians, Mughals
Orthodoxy - for Aksumites, Byzantines
Arianism - Goths
Catholic - for Franks, English, Poles, Teutons, Spanish
Protestant - for Dutch
Confucianism - Zhou, Ming, Joseon
Buddhism - Maurya, Edo
Hinduism - Khmer
Zoroastrianism - Persians
Hellenism - Mycaeneans, Greeks, Romans
Canaanism - Phoenicians, Carthaginians
Chaldeanism - Babyloanisn, Assyrians
Tengriism - Huns, Mongols
Nordic Paganism - Norsemen
Druidism - Celts
Kemetism - Egyptians, Nubians
??? - Harappans, Hittites, Haudenosaunee

 

[Narcisse]

hey @Krajzen I'm glad you could see the video.^^

I read your list, and I have this info from discord from Cat : "Confusianism is not one of the historic religions you can pick."
Maybe considered as philosophy ? or maybe there is a concept which encompass confusianism ? or maybe it's totally separeted, you have your confucianist zhou school but you develop shintoism with the religion system ???

From a ViP :
"So, as to getting historical faiths
They're unlocked as Tenet options at the second level, so you have to pick a buff Tenet first, then unlock the second level through Faith income.
Then you can pick an early religion, such as Judaism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, or grab a second Tenet and then a religion."

Seems interesting, it remember me the choice of picking a culture, or trenscend and take a culture later. Maybe it will be similar in term of tactics ???

In term of choices, it's look really complete, we will be able toset up secularism, an unreligious state, develop atheism, etc ...
it makes me want to play the game even more^^

 

[Elhoim]

I really like what I'm seeing. As everything else in the game, it's flexible and it's tied to many other systems.

4. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume that, just like the other civics, you can choose not to pursue an irreligious civic. Then again, this is just a minor gripe from me.

I'm pretty sure the lower path is for being MORE religious:

 

[notNamed]

I'd add that different religions give you different holy sites. Just like the pick of Shamanism/Polytheism gave one a Stone Circle/Obelisk, if you pick Judaism, you'll get Temple of Solomon and so on and so forth.
Likewise, the obvious warning of "don't dwell on this since things can and probably will change" applies here.

...not at all (exclusive or local religions - Judaism, Shinto)

Spoiler :

Shintoism did spread by forced conversion, actually. As a state religion of Meiji Japan, all Imperial subjects had to adhere to it. In this way, they forced the people of Hokkaido, Ryukyu Kingdom (Okinawa and thereabouts), Taiwan and Korea to practice the religion in a matter I'd say is pretty similar to Roman Empire's spreading of the Imperial Cult. Korea obviously rebounded from the practice but it was there to stay in Hokkaido and Okinawa, where it superseded the local faiths. Taiwan is a curious case since the shrines were there and not actively destroyed until... Japan recognised PRC as a sovereign country in 1974. Though I'm fairly sure anyone stupid enough to try and practice the religion would be shot on the spot by the Kuomintang during the Martial Law.

 

[FinalDoomsday]

So if I've got this right you could become religious leader of a religion that did not originate in your faction if you take over holy sites until you hold the most and then decide its future tenets? If so thats really cool.

 

[Krajzen]

So if I've got this right you could become religious leader of a religion that did not originate in your faction if you take over holy sites until you hold the most and then decide its future tenets? If so thats really cool.

Well, this is what sort of happens historically every time. Religion is not the property of some ancient (maybe small or dead now) culture, but led by current most powerful cultures embracing it.

Rome "became leader of religion that did not originate in this culture", and then it went to Byzantium, Franks, Italy...
Similarly Persians, Turks and Moors "became leaders of religion that originated in Arab culture", or (at some point) Korea "became leader of Buddhist religion that originated in India".

So - yet another superior mechanic.

 

[CivLuvah]

And I love the lack of physical religious units. Physical religious units in civ5 are unforgivable offence - so boring, tedious and frustrating mechanic, to move and counter - move them across the map, take and retake cities, and worst of all - it all went into utterly unrealistic direction (like everything in this game).

Religions IRL can spread
a) ...not at all (exclusive or local religions - Judaism, Shinto)
b) By cultural osmosis (Indianisation of South East Asia, Hellenism)
c) By voluntary state - level conversion (baptism of Poland etc)
d) By the gradual conversion resulting from this religion being attractive to people (Christianity, Islam)
e) By missionaries (Cyril and Methody)
f) By the steady stream of merchants (Islam in Indonesia)
g) By force (Christianity, Islam)

But in civ6 it's just option e) (and g) if counting inquisitors)... Everybody who can just founds a religion, and their missionaries literally beat each other to submission like chosen warriors, taking entire world by force. No coexistence, no many faiths in one empire, no state atheism/secular state, but no proper theocracy either, no syncretism, and no resistance from folk pagan religions ("pantheons"). Such a shallow, cartoonish representation of religious struggles across history.

Not to mention the fact, in civ6 every religion is de facto Christianity: universalistic, missionary, agressive and completely exclusionary. Civ6 doesn't allow me to play as proper Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, polytheistic syncretic faiths, secular state, or even Islam with its Dhimmi system of institutionalized (and integrated) religious minorities.

These are very good points. Although my concern is how characteristics a) to g) (or any combination in between) would show up in the game in a concrete way. Then again, we don't know much about the details of how religion is spread in the game other than it's spread when a territory has enough faith to convert to said religion.

I read your list, and I have this info from discord from Cat : "Confusianism is not one of the historic religions you can pick."
Maybe considered as philosophy ? or maybe there is a concept which encompass confusianism ? or maybe it's totally separeted, you have your confucianist zhou school but you develop shintoism with the religion system ???

Confucianism is usually seen as more of a philosophy than a religion in some sources because of a lack of internal cult (form of worship) I think? Some Confucians though treat the ritual honouring of ancestors in Confucianism to be itself a religious ritual. And even then, you have Chinese folk religion mixed in for more confusion (pun not intended).

I really like what I'm seeing. As everything else in the game, it's flexible and it's tied to many other systems.



I'm pretty sure the lower path is for being MORE religious:

View attachment 567644

I didn't see that. I also just realized (or forgot) that the civics system is a tree rather than just two choices. Thanks for pointing it out!

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Confucianism is usually seen as more of a philosophy than a religion in some sources because of a lack of internal cult (form of worship) I think? Some Confucians though treat the ritual honouring of ancestors in Confucianism to be itself a religious ritual. And even then, you have Chinese folk religion mixed in for more confusion (pun not intended).

More directly related to the game, the Zhou China Faction's (Ancient Era) Emblematic District is a "Confucian School", so the game pretty definitely associates Confucianism with a single Faction and not with a general Religion available to all.

 

[mitsho]

So if I've got this right you could become religious leader of a religion that did not originate in your faction if you take over holy sites until you hold the most and then decide its future tenets? If so thats really cool.

The open question for me here is how Holy Sites are founded/created. Is it one per faction or can there be more (i. E. Jerusalem, then Rome, then Santiago and Lourdes, and so on for Catholicism).

Because that sounds cool and allows for splits and so on. My only concern with the system is that the average map is too small with up to 10 players for that level of complexity.

You can't get fame stars with religion either, right?

And I like that historical religions are pre-set. The fear that it may make some people upset f. E. if Judaism is a less complex religion than Christianity since it's a level earlier, seems unfounded too me. Or rather: I love that they are confident enough to do it. Because things like that shift the lever from sandbox to simulation, from empty shells to realism. I like that.

 

[Elhoim]

I didn't see that. I also just realized (or forgot) that the civics system is a tree rather than just two choices. Thanks for pointing it out!

No prob! Also @Catoninetales_Amplitude said on Discord that you don't have to spend the Civics points nor forced to pick a choice. The event unlocks the option, but you don't have to take it.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

No prob! Also @Catoninetales_Amplitude said on Discord that you don't have to spend the Civics points nor forced to pick a choice. The event unlocks the option, but you don't have to take it.

I think the importance of that mechanic shouldn't be overlooked. One of my personal problems with Civ 6 is that there's a bucket for everything, and even vaguely similar concepts have their own "point pool" which can only be spent in one specific area. I'm not sure how it will play out in practice, but in theory I prefer the idea of a single point pool for the overall structure of your society, and then you allocate those points to shape the nature of social and political life in your empire.

All in theory at this stage, but I see this as offering three possible benefits:

1. You can emphasize or de-emphasize certain social aspects without locking yourself out of that area later. Not interested in playing religion? No problem. Wait, change your mind mid-game? Can't do that effectively in Civ 6 because you're not generating a pool of faith points. But with generic social points, you may be able to start allocating new points to shift to a religiously-oriented society (say maybe around the time of the rise of Islam?)

2. While the above holds for new points you generate, the game also seems to "lock you in" on points already spent. So spending a point early may provide early benefits, but later on in the game maybe having your leader viewed as a God King isn't ideal? The potential for early choices to eventually become a problem could open up interesting and historical gameplay decisions.

3. Revolutions could finally come back as a meaningful gameplay mechanic (I've missed them!) Opportunities to drop old choices and regain their points could become very interesting decision points. Deciding the leader isn't a god, he's just a man, deciding the clergy have too much / too little authority, these types of things should be big deals during gameplay, in my opinion. I would expect these opportunities to be limited, but when they come along, I would hope they would be fun and impactful.

Whether how HK actually plays conforms to any of the above, I'll have to wait to find out!

 

[CivLuvah]

No prob! Also @Catoninetales_Amplitude said on Discord that you don't have to spend the Civics points nor forced to pick a choice. The event unlocks the option, but you don't have to take it.

This kind of flexibility makes me even more excited for the game! As if I wasn't excited enough haha

 

[Prester John 2]

I really like what I'm seeing. As everything else in the game, it's flexible and it's tied to many other systems.



I'm pretty sure the lower path is for being MORE religious:

View attachment 567644

I'm a bit wary that those decisions to be made concern the relation to other religions (tolerance, unbelievers, minorities). What about developments within a religion that shape a society? Things like Weber's idea that the Dutch Calvinists belief in predestination lead to self-fulfilling prophecy regarding one's own economic success. Or the taboo for high caste Hindus to travel the sea which hindered their seafaring capabilities in India?

 

[CivLuvah]

I'm a bit wary that those decisions to be made concern the relation to other religions (tolerance, unbelievers, minorities). What about developments within a religion that shape a society? Things like Weber's idea that the Dutch Calvinists belief in predestination lead to self-fulfilling prophecy regarding one's own economic success. Or the taboo for high caste Hindus to travel the sea which hindered their seafaring capabilities in India?

You can choose tenets for your religion (almost) the same way (I assume) you can choose beliefs in Civ6.

 

[Elhoim]

I'm a bit wary that those decisions to be made concern the relation to other religions (tolerance, unbelievers, minorities). What about developments within a religion that shape a society? Things like Weber's idea that the Dutch Calvinists belief in predestination lead to self-fulfilling prophecy regarding one's own economic success. Or the taboo for high caste Hindus to travel the sea which hindered their seafaring capabilities in India?

I think that those may be covered by the tenets (probably in a more simple way than those examples).

 

[Narcisse]

but I doubt there will be such sort of complexity in tenets, with some tenet which will stop you to seafaring. It's a 4X, so

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

The titles of the tenets feel more like titles of virtues rather than doctrines (like in Civ6), but I assume that won't be final.

I am not sure about that. This may be intentional to leave the specifics of the tenet up to player interpretation.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume that, just like the other civics, you can choose not to pursue an irreligious civic.

As mentioned by others, you're never forced to adopt a Civics*
*exceptions may apply

So if I've got this right you could become religious leader of a religion that did not originate in your faction if you take over holy sites until you hold the most and then decide its future tenets? If so thats really cool.

The open question for me here is how Holy Sites are founded/created. Is it one per faction or can there be more (i. E. Jerusalem, then Rome, then Santiago and Lourdes, and so on for Catholicism).

Yes, you can take over leadership of another religion by controlling the most Holy Sites. You can either take control of existing Holy Sites, or build more Holy Sites, but the number of Holy Sites that can be built is limited (The one you receive from the founding event, for example, and certain Wonders) and they are not exactly small projects.

You can't get fame stars with religion either, right?

No Fame stars directly for religion. There are some that are indirectly connected to Fame. E.g. I believe the Holy Site counts as a wonder for purposes of the "Be the first to build a Wonder" Competitive Deed.

And I like that historical religions are pre-set. The fear that it may make some people upset f. E. if Judaism is a less complex religion than Christianity since it's a level earlier, seems unfounded too me. Or rather: I love that they are confident enough to do it. Because things like that shift the lever from sandbox to simulation, from empty shells to realism. I like that.

As far as I recall, within the religion system the historic religions are the same, and you define them yourself through the tenets. I don't know if any other systems have content specific to any historic religions.
Also, the way you choose a historic religion isn't finalized yet.

While the above holds for new points you generate, the game also seems to "lock you in" on points already spent.

Yes, Civics choices are generally locked, though there are some ways to change your choices (revolution being one of them...)

Right, exactly. I saw people complaining about how the borders didn't "make sense" and I think they make a lot of sense!

I have seen this come up so much since we announced the game, and it is often phrased as "Why are there borders before there are people," as if the player's units are the first people to ever show up there. My personal assumption has always been that these areas are already inhabited by some people, but not in significant numbers and they are not organized into a larger entity, and the player incorporates this existing population into their realm. I think some of the Curiosity graphics even show people walking around similar to what happens in the cities.

 

[Siptah]

Revolutions confirmed

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

Revolutions confirmed

I could have sworn I confirmed those ages ago in the Civics video and also when players asked what Stability does in OpenDev.

 

[CivLuvah]

I don't know if any other systems have content specific to any historic religions.
Also, the way you choose a historic religion isn't finalized yet.

I think for some people they're expecting a religion system something at the level of CK2/3 or EU4, except more customizable. However, these games are "locked" within their time period, so I couldn't see how you can apply that system to a more generalized time period game like Humankind.

Revolutions confirmed

Is that Rhye's and Fall I see in the distance coming to us?

My personal assumption has always been that these areas are already inhabited by some people, but not in significant numbers and they are not organized into a larger entity, and the player incorporates this existing population into their realm. I think some of the Curiosity graphics even show people walking around similar to what happens in the cities

That's actually a good way to imagine the people already on the map.