Humankind - Romans discussion thread

[Eagle Pursuit]

https://twitter.com/humankindgame/status/1250091742466097153?s=19

Emblematic Quarter:Triumphal Arch
Emblematic Unit: Praetorian Guard

Classification: Expansionist

 

[FinalDoomsday]

Nice, so does Praetorian Guard replace another unit? Or this an elite unit I wonder. If they still have a generic classical swordsman I'm hoping they resemble common legion soldiers!

 

[grug]

The Gothic EQ is the tumulus, and the description talks about how they were used to bury the dead, while the Roman EQ is a triumphal arch, and the description talks about how they are a symbol of militaristic triumph. If it turns out that the tumuli gives a benefit when losing units, like a boost to influence or military strength when you lose a unit, while the triumphal arch gives a benefit when defeating a unit, like extra influence when you defeat an army, that could lead to some really interesting clashes between the Romans and Goths. No real evidence for that, other than the description of the EQs and a quote for the Goths when they are shown in the culture selection from the most recent Feature Focus video that says "The fallen will not be forgotten as we fight..." Could be sort of cool though if the bonuses of different cultures clashed like that, to promote conflict in a way.

 

[conorbebe]

Personally, I would have picked the forum to be the Roman EQ, but I suppose triumphal arches are quite "emblematic", with them being found abundantly in Roman architecture.

 

[Krajzen]

What a surprising faction! Truly was not expecting such exotic culture. Oh well, you'll see me reading about this kingdom on Wiki - I guess it had to be quite cool to get to a game like this one

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Am a little concerned by the use of the Praetorian Guard, since they were more Palace or Political Unit than combat unit, and a tiny fraction of the total legions of the Roman Empire.
Sort of like having the Immortals represent all the Persian infantry, so I guess using a limited number Elite to replace everybody else in the army is now an accepted thing in Historical 4X games - God Knows Civ has done it often enough (looking at you. Berserkers and Garde Imperial!)

On the other hand, after looking up a couple of things, this Faction is actually the Roman Empire, not 'Rome'. While 'Triumphs' were celebrated with some kind of structure in the Republic, they were called fornices (singular fornix) and we aren't sure they included an arch all the time - none of them have survived to be inspected. Under the Empire the title changes to arcus (Arch) and we have numerous examples still existing showing the classic arch on entablature shown in the screenshots.

That means there is still room in a DLC or other form for a Roman Republic Faction with an Emblematic Forum Quarter and Marian Legion Unit - the force that really conquered its way to an empire.

 

[mitsho]

Rome seems very militaristic, with that culture card and all. I liked the old one better. I don't think the unit will play that differently whether it's named Legion or Praetorian Guard. Maybe you can switch your government faster with the latter...

 

[Jkchart]

I

Am a little concerned by the use of the Praetorian Guard, since they were more Palace or Political Unit than combat unit, and a tiny fraction of the total legions of the Roman Empire.
Sort of like having the Immortals represent all the Persian infantry, so I guess using a limited number Elite to replace everybody else in the army is now an accepted thing in Historical 4X games - God Knows Civ has done it often enough (looking at you. Berserkers and Garde Imperial!)

On the other hand, after looking up a couple of things, this Faction is actually the Roman Empire, not 'Rome'. While 'Triumphs' were celebrated with some kind of structure in the Republic, they were called fornices (singular fornix) and we aren't sure they included an arch all the time - none of them have survived to be inspected. Under the Empire the title changes to arcus (Arch) and we have numerous examples still existing showing the classic arch on entablature shown in the screenshots.

That means there is still room in a DLC or other form for a Roman Republic Faction with an Emblematic Forum Quarter and Marian Legion Unit - the force that really conquered its way to an empire.

I'm not sure about there being a Roman Republic faction...if the "Classical" era in this game is representing approx. 500 BC to 500 AD, the Roman Republic would be in the same era as Rome since the republic in Rome was founded around 500BC as well. I think that (regardless of merit), there is one "Roman" faction, except for the Byzantines of course. The scope of the era just makes it suspect to me, but I'm not against it.

I do think Etruscan civilization is possible for an "ancient" Italic culture...but who knows. I could easily be way off base.

 

[FinalDoomsday]

I prefer the new card, I get where they were going with the old one by showing the Emperor watching the gladiator match they were showing two iconic elements of the Romans in one picture but ultimately it just looks much cooler to show off the fight better.

One thing that is strange is all the cards previously seemed to match their cultures type. Militarists shown with warriors, Builders with structures, Merchants enganging in some part of commercial activity or showing off wealth, aestheste doing some cultural/religious activity, agrarian farming and expansionists... expanding. This one doesnt really correspond to their expansionist type perhaps it's just been coincidental how the art cards linked up but I did find it oddly satisfying. Could have had a town in Gaul seeing the first effects of romanisation to put across the expansionist identity.

 

[Krajzen]

I'm really relieved to see Rome and Persia being expansionist civs. If anybody in this era deserves this type of bonus, it should be given to empires which held unbelievable amount of territory for extraordinarily long time.

 

[Siptah]

@Jkchart Etruscans would have to be in classical as well.

 

[ehecatzin]

I agree It's odd that they get a Praetorian Guard as opposed to the Legion.

 

[Krajzen]

@Jkchart Etruscans would have to be in classical as well.

No, because of HK's unclear definition of "classical" which excludes Phoenicia but includes Huns and Goths
If Phoenicia borderline case can be stretched into the first era, then Etruscans could be as well, both cultures entered history not that far apart.

I think either we get Praetorians because game's military system references "legions" as generic term, or because it was deemed to be more specific military unit than "legion" term covering Roman way of army organisation.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

No, because of HK's unclear definition of "classical" which excludes Phoenicia but includes Huns and Goths
If Phoenicia borderline case can be stretched into the first era, then Etruscans could be as well, both cultures entered history not that far apart.

I think either we get Praetorians because game's military system references "legions" as generic term, or because it was deemed to be more specific military unit than "legion" term covering Roman way of army organisation.

While 'Legio' referred to the standard Roman heavy infantry formation from the semi-historical phalanx-like formation of spearmen through the Republican mixed spear-swordsmen, Marius' reforms, and the various Imperial modifications of lighter armor, longer swords, inclusion of 'Lanciarii' (spear or pikemen) and increasing reliance on auxiliaries, as can be seen from that summary, it covers a lot of variety in game terms: essentially, everything from spearmen to swordsmen to mixtures of the two, and all within the same Era. Praetorians, at least, pretty much refers to a single type-unit, the over-dressed and decorative Palace troops. The fact that they were never an effective combat unit against an armed opponent is obviously, not a consideration in the game!

 

[Uberfrog]

I wonder if there’s is a chance that the Praetorians murder your leader and sell your empire to the highest bidder!

I just don’t understand game developers’ obsession with the puffed up and duplicitous praetorians, when you have the Legionary right there...

 

[Siptah]

No, because of HK's unclear definition of "classical" which excludes Phoenicia but includes Huns and Goths
If Phoenicia borderline case can be stretched into the first era, then Etruscans could be as well, both cultures entered history not that far apart.

I think we saw some numbers earlier that mentioned the Classical age for Humankind would be 1000 BC - 500. So "Phoenicians" - however you understand that term - started their "golden age" earlier anyway but overlap into this era. Etruscans on the other hand cannot fit before 1000 BC. 1000 BC is for me a bit of strange cutoff year, the classical era usually starts around the year 500 in most books (and that's why - to name a modern classic - Broodbank's Making of The Middle Sea ends at that date). In this case the Etruscans would indeed belong into the ancient era, well, at least they would be borderline (I would put their "Golden Age" if there was one at 800-400, so more or less when the Phoenician one ends).

The problem with the Phoenicians is that THE Phoenicians never existed, it's a term that came about much later and by outsiders that grouped them together. It's not a state, not an ethnicity, not a geographical region, not a concept, not a people, not a single culture - there never was a thing like a Phoenician identity (but it is projected backwards nowadays of course). It's an incredibly problematic term that is rarely used nowadays without a remark that it doesn't make much sense except that there is no better term for this loose grouping of different cultures and cities ;-). The city list will tell how Amplitude views it to some extent: will it be the late bronze age and early iron age levantine cities only (so 1200-7xx BC)? Or will it include then unimportant cities like Ugarit or even Qatna? Byblos as one of the first cities (it was the dominant seaside city of that region for over 1000 years)? In that case they are indeed placed correctly in the ancient era.

Even if we do not define exact years for the eras, honestly ask yourself:
Don't think of the borders of the time frame, but the core and you have the bronze age mediterranean of Thutmose III's (1300) time and the classical mediterranean of Augustus (0) with no other choices - where do the Phoenicians fit better? And then do the same thing with the Etruscans.

And as an aside, with no extra era for the Late Classical/Dark Age/whatever you want to call it, Huns and Goths fit much better in Classical than medieval as well. Do the same thing: imagine putting them with Augustus and then putting them to the high medieval times of Fridericus Stupor Mundi.

 

[FinalDoomsday]

I wonder if there’s is a chance that the Praetorians murder your leader and sell your empire to the highest bidder!

I just don’t understand game developers’ obsession with the puffed up and duplicitous praetorians, when you have the Legionary right there...

With the event system this is entirely possible! Just leave a preatorian unit in your capital and 'enjoy' a unique event!

I think the obsession is purely the look, an excuse for the art team to draw up the most ostentatious Roman soldier they can imagine I can respect that but I hope regular Legionary's turn up as Roman generic soldiers.

 

[Siptah]

I think the obsession is purely the look, an excuse for the art team to draw up the most ostentatious Roman soldier they can imagine I can respect that but I hope regular Legionary's turn up as Roman generic soldiers.

These ones look a bit different than the the icon revealed yesterday - especially the helmets. There's still hope. On the other hand - alpha version

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

Personally, I would have picked the forum to be the Roman EQ, but I suppose triumphal arches are quite "emblematic", with them being found abundantly in Roman architecture.

The Emblematic Quarter is not a forum, because the forum is present elsewhere in the Roman cities in game. I believe it's on the city center, or possibly the Commons Quarter.

Am a little concerned by the use of the Praetorian Guard, since they were more Palace or Political Unit than combat unit, and a tiny fraction of the total legions of the Roman Empire.
Sort of like having the Immortals represent all the Persian infantry, so I guess using a limited number Elite to replace everybody else in the army is now an accepted thing in Historical 4X games - God Knows Civ has done it often enough (looking at you. Berserkers and Garde Imperial!)

I think either we get Praetorians because game's military system references "legions" as generic term, or because it was deemed to be more specific military unit than "legion" term covering Roman way of army organisation.

Krajzen is basically correct. As shared units of the era will have appearance based on your current culture, there are other units wearing the emblematic armor and helmet and using a scutum. Of course they historically were only a small "elite" unit (quotation marks as Boris probably has a point about them not seeing much effective combat use, but my Roman military history is too rusty to know for sure without looking it up), but often the "Elite" are what others see as representative of a culture or a military organisation.

I prefer the new card, I get where they were going with the old one by showing the Emperor watching the gladiator match they were showing two iconic elements of the Romans in one picture but ultimately it just looks much cooler to show off the fight better.

One thing that is strange is all the cards previously seemed to match their cultures type. Militarists shown with warriors, Builders with structures, Merchants enganging in some part of commercial activity or showing off wealth, aestheste doing some cultural/religious activity, agrarian farming and expansionists... expanding. This one doesnt really correspond to their expansionist type perhaps it's just been coincidental how the art cards linked up but I did find it oddly satisfying. Could have had a town in Gaul seeing the first effects of romanisation to put across the expansionist identity.

According to what our artists told me, the new card was indeed chosen to show off the fight better and have some art with a bit more action in the roster of classical cultures. We also think that the gladiatorial fights are indeed an "emblematic" part of Roman culture, but also serve to represent their expansionism, as many of the fighters were drawn from conquered territories.

 

[Elhoim]

Nice, so does Praetorian Guard replace another unit? Or this an elite unit I wonder. If they still have a generic classical swordsman I'm hoping they resemble common legion soldiers!

On twitter they said:

"As for the unit, we have a common unit that is similar to Legions, so we wanted to make the Roman emblematic unit different."