lindsay40k
Emperor
I would love to see a pre-Ancient Stone Age era.
This of course brings to mind the Ice Age hunters following the Mammoth herds. But there's a lot more to hunter-gatherer than hunting, so I'll elaborate.
When a group of ancient humans reaches the Civ starting point, they've already got past hunter-gatherer. I've raised the idea of animal units yielding a bit of food for Settlements, which is one thing... but now I'm thinking bigger picture. There's an argument to dial the calendar back a little, to a time in which the settler/settlement system is replaced by a mobile Clan unit which relies on proximity to a mobile or unsustained food source for sustenance.
Wars of extermination/dominance weren't really the done thing back then. They'd scrap over matters of honour and so on, and in many cases there was no concept of a state of peace, but the hunter-gatherer economy hadn't the means to sustain total war - and living space was so abundant and food sources so transient, there was no motive for conquest.
The main gameplay thing that a Stone Age could add is a period of mapping the area to find a perfect spot for a capital without committing or worrying that you're losing three turns on a Pyramid or Axe rush. Alongside that, clans coming into contact with one another and the meeting points becoming sites of cultural and economic significance (early traders, later treasure hunters, modern tourists) would be interesting.
This boils down to a few early human lifestyles, all of which suggest an early tech (I'm going to use distinct terms for a wandering animal unit and the resource tile to which it's related):
- Hunters: following Game units of Mammoth (Elephant), Caribou (Deer), Buffalo (Bison), Beaver (Fur), or Herd units of Auroch (Cattle), Equids (Horse), Boar (Pigs), Ovines (Sheep).
- Fishers: staying close to coastal areas.
- Diggers: lived in areas with abundant roots, especially Yam. (As robust tools are of particular use to such clans, this suggests HR Carving or vanilla Mining.)
Herd and Game have 1 movement and do not attack. They are technically Barbarians but do not attack, and attempt to end their turn without another unit next to them (including Predators, which can be slightly retuned to attempt to end their turn next to a Herd or Game unit if no player units are within range!).
If they start their turn next to a Clan or Worker, Herds and Game have '(Civ adjective)' added to their unit name for that turn; if they start next to two or more Clans, the past turn's name applies. (This represents the herd being 'our' herd, and makes things run smoother later on.)
Clan units have Sentry, Movement 2, Strength 4, and cannot attack anything except Predatory animal units. Clan units would automatically generate Beakers every turn.
To be clear: animal-based resources don't exist any more from the start; only wandering Herd and Game that can be captured (more on this later).
So, then. Logically, we'd want Fishers to start next to Coasts. I imagine Carvers would be a bit more likely to develop Agriculture with their skills and tools being transferable to making irrigation channels, so I'd suggest Fresh Water tiles for their start. This leaves Hunters, whom I'd suggest should spawn somewhere with no Coast or Fresh Water in sight, with a Herd or Game unit next to them.
Now, all of these can produce a resource to trade with others; bone tools, furs, shells, fishing tools, dug up precious stones, etc. To represent this, I would suggest that when two Clan units encounter one another, they would gain each other's techs. If both sides gain a tech, then the meeting point becomes a trading site of cultural significance; a tile between the two units gets +1 commerce upgrade. Also, a roll is made as to whether the meeting goes well (+1 relations boost until Classical age) or badly (-1 relations penalty until Classical age).
Ultimately, a clan is only going to settle when there's a stationary, sustainable food source. In game terms, we're talking about a resource tile developable with Work Boats, Pasture, Camp or Farm. Now, if Camps got moved to Archery, this would make all four of these options tie in with an Ancient era tech, which nicely represents the transition from Stone Age hunter-gatherers.
Now, as things stand, the starting position gets a whole bunch of resources, right? Well, instead of this 'take what you're given' dice roll, a period of wandering would give the player a bit more control over their Capital's location and resources.
So, here's what I've got in mind: your Clan unit gains the 'Settle' option when you develop Archery, Pastoralism, Sailing or Agriculture. At the start of the game, this is made clear - research one of these techs to settle. The recommendation would be based on you having Herd, Game, Fishing or being a Digger, and the AI would follow the recommendation. Though you could of course research other techs and get cracking on another direction - say, if you start off Hunting Beavers and find a coast full of Clams.
Have Archery: Clans and Worker units gain a 'Capture' option when next to a Game unit that has been tagged with their Civ's adjective. This turns the unit into a Resource of the appropriate type. Clans gain 'Settle' commend when next to a Camp-related resource.
Have Pastoralism: Clans and Worker units gain a 'Capture' option when next to a Herd unit that has been tagged with their Civ's adjective. This turns the unit into a Resource of the appropriate type. Clans gain 'Settle' commend when next to a Pasture-related resource.
Have Sailing: Clans gain 'Settle' command when next to a Coastal tile. When a Clan settles, a random Coastal tile next to the Settlement gains a random Fishing Boats-related resource on it.
Have Agriculture: Clans gain 'Settle' command when on a Fresh Water tile. When a Clan settles next to a Fresh Water tile, a random Fresh Water tile next to the Settlement gains a random Farm-related resource on it. (If the only suitable tile has an as-yet unrevealed resource on it, that resource is displaced.)
Additionally, at the moment you settle, one tile within your 'big cross' will have a resource added to it that is not yet visible (replicating the 'abundant Capital' we know and love). Finally, if a Civ has not yet developed Bronze Working, Forests will spawn and spread very rapidly near their Capital's 'big cross', so the early game chopping business will still be on the cards. (Historically, this is very accurate - the Mesolithic 'Middle Stone Age' coincided with massive forest expansion that in many cases necessitated the development of strong axes for chopping, and with early turns representing many years it's not an odd thing to happen.)
Yes, one could potentially Capture a Herd or Game unit on a Fresh Water tile next to a Coast and then research Agriculture and Fishing and Sailing and gain a stack of resources next to their Capital. You could even reveal Copper before settling. But you'd risk being be wiped out by a rush from a Civ that spent all that time building Settlers, Workers, combat units, working a Silver mine for commerce and grabbing good Wonders. Better to quickly find a good site and settle quickly, rather than spend forever setting up the ultimate Bureaucracy capital.
Note that free-standing Farmed resources will still be around. Agricultural civs just get a free bonus tile.
Right, so the AI will need teaching how to Hunter-Gather. Here's some guidelines for it:
- Researching Sailing: When they find a tile the AI usually goes for as a City site, which has a Coastal tile next to it, they lock on to it and scout the nearby area (one turn away, then back again). If they find a better area, they move on; if another Clan settles within the best known area area, they'll pick the next best and head towards it instead.
- Researching Agriculture: When they find a tile the AI usually goes for as a City site, which has Fresh Water, they lock on to it and scout the nearby area (one turn away, then back again). If they find a better area, they move on; if another Clan settles within the best known area area, they'll pick the next best and head towards it instead.
- Researching Archery: They end each turn next to the highest food-yielding Game unit they can see that hasn't been 'tagged' for another Civ.
- Researching Pastoralism: They end each turn next to the highest food-yielding Herd unit they can see that hasn't been 'tagged' for another Civ.
- Herd and Game units will gravitate to the nearest Farm-type resource tile that has another resource within two tiles, leading the AI Clans 'by the nose' to an OK location. (The Herd will still move away from other units, and so will tend to go in circles around the spot until caught.)
Now, in a bit more depth:
- Not researching Sailing but has learned the Fishing tech, and it sees a location suitable for a Coastal settlement with three resources in the 'big cross', and has not invested much time on their current research, and no other Clans are in sight: switch research to Sailing.
- Not learned Fishing, and it sees a location suitable for a Coastal settlement with FOUR resources in the 'big cross', and has not invested much time on their current research, and no other Clans are in sight: switch research to Fishing.
- Not researching Agriculture but has learned the Carving tech, and it sees a location suitable for a River settlement with three resources in the 'big cross', and has not invested much time on their current research, and no other Clans are in sight: switch research to Agriculture.
- Not learned Carving, and it sees a location suitable for a River settlement with FOUR resources in the 'big cross', and has not invested much time on their current research, and no other Clans are in sight: switch research to Carving.
- Not researching Archery but has learned the Hunting tech, not following a Herd, and it sees a Buffalo unit that hasn't been 'tagged' for another Civ, and has not invested much time on their current research: switch research to Archery.
- Not researching Pastoralism but has learned the Hunting tech, and it sees a Herd unit that hasn't been 'tagged' for another Civ, and has not invested much time on their current research: switch research to Pastoralism.
- Has learned Archery but sees no untagged Game, or has learned Pastoralism but sees no untagged Herd: start whatever research tree is necessary to Settle the nearest possible city site.
These 'switch research' points will actually trigger an event whereby the player is prompted by their best Hunters, Fishers or Foragers to develop technique to exploit the natural abundance, and given the option to switch research; the AI automatically agrees if it's less than, say, a third of the way to finishing its current research.
Once a Clan has Settled, the game proceeds as normal.
Not sure about how goody huts would work with Clans. Definitely there should be no slingshot to the Settling techs. Perhaps they should be ignored by Clans.
There is one small possible issue where two Hunting Clans both leave their starting prey to go after the same Boar Herd. Only one of them will 'tag' the Herd, and their old prey will both wander off. An intelligent human player will be fine, but the AI needs to be told what to do. In the even of an AI Hunter Clan finding itself with no visible prey, it will pick the best city site it's seen to date and zoom towards it whilst researching what's needed. (If it encounters an unclaimed prey en route, the priority system will take over.)
Finally, Clans cannot enter a settled Civ's borders nor conduct diplomacy. They can be attacked without declaring war and will be turned into Workers if defeated (except by Predators, which eat them).
So, then, in summary:
- Players start with a Clan of Hunter-Gatherers.
- Depending on your Clan's particular skills, you'll start near a relevant food source.
- Everyone gets to explore their starting area without fear of falling behind the arms/tech/population/wonders race.
- The early rush advantage gained by having the militaristic Hunting tech is somewhat mitigated by not having full control over starting area.
- Clans are tough but nonaggressive; exploration phase does not bring risk of Warrior units pouncing on unguarded settlements.
- Capitals should still have a decent selection of resources and loads of Forests to chop once they reach Bronze Working.
- Animal resources which are basically migratory herds have a lot more flavour.
One more thing this would all have to be a 'Hunter-Gatherers and roaming prey' option. Deselecting it would mean stationary animal-based resources and starting with the usual Settler/Unit combo.
So, yeah. There's a whole lot to take in.
This of course brings to mind the Ice Age hunters following the Mammoth herds. But there's a lot more to hunter-gatherer than hunting, so I'll elaborate.
When a group of ancient humans reaches the Civ starting point, they've already got past hunter-gatherer. I've raised the idea of animal units yielding a bit of food for Settlements, which is one thing... but now I'm thinking bigger picture. There's an argument to dial the calendar back a little, to a time in which the settler/settlement system is replaced by a mobile Clan unit which relies on proximity to a mobile or unsustained food source for sustenance.
Wars of extermination/dominance weren't really the done thing back then. They'd scrap over matters of honour and so on, and in many cases there was no concept of a state of peace, but the hunter-gatherer economy hadn't the means to sustain total war - and living space was so abundant and food sources so transient, there was no motive for conquest.
The main gameplay thing that a Stone Age could add is a period of mapping the area to find a perfect spot for a capital without committing or worrying that you're losing three turns on a Pyramid or Axe rush. Alongside that, clans coming into contact with one another and the meeting points becoming sites of cultural and economic significance (early traders, later treasure hunters, modern tourists) would be interesting.
This boils down to a few early human lifestyles, all of which suggest an early tech (I'm going to use distinct terms for a wandering animal unit and the resource tile to which it's related):
- Hunters: following Game units of Mammoth (Elephant), Caribou (Deer), Buffalo (Bison), Beaver (Fur), or Herd units of Auroch (Cattle), Equids (Horse), Boar (Pigs), Ovines (Sheep).
- Fishers: staying close to coastal areas.
- Diggers: lived in areas with abundant roots, especially Yam. (As robust tools are of particular use to such clans, this suggests HR Carving or vanilla Mining.)
Herd and Game have 1 movement and do not attack. They are technically Barbarians but do not attack, and attempt to end their turn without another unit next to them (including Predators, which can be slightly retuned to attempt to end their turn next to a Herd or Game unit if no player units are within range!).
If they start their turn next to a Clan or Worker, Herds and Game have '(Civ adjective)' added to their unit name for that turn; if they start next to two or more Clans, the past turn's name applies. (This represents the herd being 'our' herd, and makes things run smoother later on.)
Clan units have Sentry, Movement 2, Strength 4, and cannot attack anything except Predatory animal units. Clan units would automatically generate Beakers every turn.
To be clear: animal-based resources don't exist any more from the start; only wandering Herd and Game that can be captured (more on this later).
So, then. Logically, we'd want Fishers to start next to Coasts. I imagine Carvers would be a bit more likely to develop Agriculture with their skills and tools being transferable to making irrigation channels, so I'd suggest Fresh Water tiles for their start. This leaves Hunters, whom I'd suggest should spawn somewhere with no Coast or Fresh Water in sight, with a Herd or Game unit next to them.
Now, all of these can produce a resource to trade with others; bone tools, furs, shells, fishing tools, dug up precious stones, etc. To represent this, I would suggest that when two Clan units encounter one another, they would gain each other's techs. If both sides gain a tech, then the meeting point becomes a trading site of cultural significance; a tile between the two units gets +1 commerce upgrade. Also, a roll is made as to whether the meeting goes well (+1 relations boost until Classical age) or badly (-1 relations penalty until Classical age).
Ultimately, a clan is only going to settle when there's a stationary, sustainable food source. In game terms, we're talking about a resource tile developable with Work Boats, Pasture, Camp or Farm. Now, if Camps got moved to Archery, this would make all four of these options tie in with an Ancient era tech, which nicely represents the transition from Stone Age hunter-gatherers.
Now, as things stand, the starting position gets a whole bunch of resources, right? Well, instead of this 'take what you're given' dice roll, a period of wandering would give the player a bit more control over their Capital's location and resources.
So, here's what I've got in mind: your Clan unit gains the 'Settle' option when you develop Archery, Pastoralism, Sailing or Agriculture. At the start of the game, this is made clear - research one of these techs to settle. The recommendation would be based on you having Herd, Game, Fishing or being a Digger, and the AI would follow the recommendation. Though you could of course research other techs and get cracking on another direction - say, if you start off Hunting Beavers and find a coast full of Clams.
Have Archery: Clans and Worker units gain a 'Capture' option when next to a Game unit that has been tagged with their Civ's adjective. This turns the unit into a Resource of the appropriate type. Clans gain 'Settle' commend when next to a Camp-related resource.
Have Pastoralism: Clans and Worker units gain a 'Capture' option when next to a Herd unit that has been tagged with their Civ's adjective. This turns the unit into a Resource of the appropriate type. Clans gain 'Settle' commend when next to a Pasture-related resource.
Have Sailing: Clans gain 'Settle' command when next to a Coastal tile. When a Clan settles, a random Coastal tile next to the Settlement gains a random Fishing Boats-related resource on it.
Have Agriculture: Clans gain 'Settle' command when on a Fresh Water tile. When a Clan settles next to a Fresh Water tile, a random Fresh Water tile next to the Settlement gains a random Farm-related resource on it. (If the only suitable tile has an as-yet unrevealed resource on it, that resource is displaced.)
Additionally, at the moment you settle, one tile within your 'big cross' will have a resource added to it that is not yet visible (replicating the 'abundant Capital' we know and love). Finally, if a Civ has not yet developed Bronze Working, Forests will spawn and spread very rapidly near their Capital's 'big cross', so the early game chopping business will still be on the cards. (Historically, this is very accurate - the Mesolithic 'Middle Stone Age' coincided with massive forest expansion that in many cases necessitated the development of strong axes for chopping, and with early turns representing many years it's not an odd thing to happen.)
Yes, one could potentially Capture a Herd or Game unit on a Fresh Water tile next to a Coast and then research Agriculture and Fishing and Sailing and gain a stack of resources next to their Capital. You could even reveal Copper before settling. But you'd risk being be wiped out by a rush from a Civ that spent all that time building Settlers, Workers, combat units, working a Silver mine for commerce and grabbing good Wonders. Better to quickly find a good site and settle quickly, rather than spend forever setting up the ultimate Bureaucracy capital.
Note that free-standing Farmed resources will still be around. Agricultural civs just get a free bonus tile.
Right, so the AI will need teaching how to Hunter-Gather. Here's some guidelines for it:
- Researching Sailing: When they find a tile the AI usually goes for as a City site, which has a Coastal tile next to it, they lock on to it and scout the nearby area (one turn away, then back again). If they find a better area, they move on; if another Clan settles within the best known area area, they'll pick the next best and head towards it instead.
- Researching Agriculture: When they find a tile the AI usually goes for as a City site, which has Fresh Water, they lock on to it and scout the nearby area (one turn away, then back again). If they find a better area, they move on; if another Clan settles within the best known area area, they'll pick the next best and head towards it instead.
- Researching Archery: They end each turn next to the highest food-yielding Game unit they can see that hasn't been 'tagged' for another Civ.
- Researching Pastoralism: They end each turn next to the highest food-yielding Herd unit they can see that hasn't been 'tagged' for another Civ.
- Herd and Game units will gravitate to the nearest Farm-type resource tile that has another resource within two tiles, leading the AI Clans 'by the nose' to an OK location. (The Herd will still move away from other units, and so will tend to go in circles around the spot until caught.)
Now, in a bit more depth:
- Not researching Sailing but has learned the Fishing tech, and it sees a location suitable for a Coastal settlement with three resources in the 'big cross', and has not invested much time on their current research, and no other Clans are in sight: switch research to Sailing.
- Not learned Fishing, and it sees a location suitable for a Coastal settlement with FOUR resources in the 'big cross', and has not invested much time on their current research, and no other Clans are in sight: switch research to Fishing.
- Not researching Agriculture but has learned the Carving tech, and it sees a location suitable for a River settlement with three resources in the 'big cross', and has not invested much time on their current research, and no other Clans are in sight: switch research to Agriculture.
- Not learned Carving, and it sees a location suitable for a River settlement with FOUR resources in the 'big cross', and has not invested much time on their current research, and no other Clans are in sight: switch research to Carving.
- Not researching Archery but has learned the Hunting tech, not following a Herd, and it sees a Buffalo unit that hasn't been 'tagged' for another Civ, and has not invested much time on their current research: switch research to Archery.
- Not researching Pastoralism but has learned the Hunting tech, and it sees a Herd unit that hasn't been 'tagged' for another Civ, and has not invested much time on their current research: switch research to Pastoralism.
- Has learned Archery but sees no untagged Game, or has learned Pastoralism but sees no untagged Herd: start whatever research tree is necessary to Settle the nearest possible city site.
These 'switch research' points will actually trigger an event whereby the player is prompted by their best Hunters, Fishers or Foragers to develop technique to exploit the natural abundance, and given the option to switch research; the AI automatically agrees if it's less than, say, a third of the way to finishing its current research.
Once a Clan has Settled, the game proceeds as normal.
Not sure about how goody huts would work with Clans. Definitely there should be no slingshot to the Settling techs. Perhaps they should be ignored by Clans.
There is one small possible issue where two Hunting Clans both leave their starting prey to go after the same Boar Herd. Only one of them will 'tag' the Herd, and their old prey will both wander off. An intelligent human player will be fine, but the AI needs to be told what to do. In the even of an AI Hunter Clan finding itself with no visible prey, it will pick the best city site it's seen to date and zoom towards it whilst researching what's needed. (If it encounters an unclaimed prey en route, the priority system will take over.)
Finally, Clans cannot enter a settled Civ's borders nor conduct diplomacy. They can be attacked without declaring war and will be turned into Workers if defeated (except by Predators, which eat them).
So, then, in summary:
- Players start with a Clan of Hunter-Gatherers.
- Depending on your Clan's particular skills, you'll start near a relevant food source.
- Everyone gets to explore their starting area without fear of falling behind the arms/tech/population/wonders race.
- The early rush advantage gained by having the militaristic Hunting tech is somewhat mitigated by not having full control over starting area.
- Clans are tough but nonaggressive; exploration phase does not bring risk of Warrior units pouncing on unguarded settlements.
- Capitals should still have a decent selection of resources and loads of Forests to chop once they reach Bronze Working.
- Animal resources which are basically migratory herds have a lot more flavour.
One more thing this would all have to be a 'Hunter-Gatherers and roaming prey' option. Deselecting it would mean stationary animal-based resources and starting with the usual Settler/Unit combo.
So, yeah. There's a whole lot to take in.
.
