Hyborem's Whisper - Suggestion

[Yong]

If you are the demon lord, you will choose:
1. Hijack one of the best AV-worshiping town under your direct control, and thus making mortals less likely to summon you
2. Spread AV, making more people worshiping you, and mortals more likely to summon you

For me, I will definitely choose the later. Therefore here's my propose on tweak on the Inferno world spell:
Every city without AV religion has a x% percent chance gaining AV religion.
x can be a fixed value or moderated by AC.

The advantages are:
1. The AV holy city is going to benefit from the spreading of religion. So the summoner who are most likely to be the owner of AV holy city will benefit. This is an incentive to summon Hyborem.
2. The vast spread of AV increases AC significantly, benefiting Inferno and all other AV followers.
3. Without the risk of losing your best city, hopefully more human players will consider "summon Hyborem but do not switch" as something worth trying.
4. Finally we can assign some job to Inquisitors - you say this unit has been removed? Oh I mean those priests with Inquisition promotion then, sorry if you never waste XP on this promotion.

Potential issue:
Order can spread really fast, but only when it is the state religion. To balance such a world spell that can spread AV at massive scale, we may need some additional tweak on Order:
When Order spread to a city and Order is the state religion, the city has a chance of creating an acolyte or a crusader(if technology is already available) - same as current setting.
When Order spread to a city and Order is NOT the state religion, the city has a chance of creating an acolyte but not a crusader even crusader technology is already available.

Comments please

 

[Mailbox]

I'm not too big a fan because a random and possibly huge increase to the AC wouldn't be fun if it always happened when Hyborem was summoned. The Whisper is a good spell for a human player but not if the human summons Hyborem and doesn't switch. Not really sure if this would fix it because I'd hate to know that Hyborem would cast a potentially annoying spell if I wasn't AV and an almost overpowering spell is I was AV.

I have no idea why you're also suggesting the nerf to Order. I don't think that getting crusaders is overpowering at all and is a nice perk to spreading the order whether or not you have the state religion.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

agreed that hyborem's whisper is not a very good spell right now. your suggestion is nice, if somewhat a bit too random.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I was thinking that I'd probably remove most world spells in my version--or rather turn them into rituals. I still like Hyborem's though, as I like to be able to steal the AV holy city and make it my capital, if I'm lucky enough to switch before the AI founds its first city. (Note to self: Go back and make the Infernal's settlers immobile for 2 turns after they are added again, as that does a good job of making sure they can't settle before switching.)

I'm thinking I may change Hyborem's whisper to work more like Rantine's of Basium's Convert spell, no longer being a world spell at all. It would probably have a chance to convert any city with AV that Hyborem enters, and also have a chance to cause war. I'm thinking that Hyborem would gain the ability to move through rival territory without open boards, but could not leave hell terrain. There would be a lot of evil units/spells that could raise plot counters, so he would have to work to corrupt rivals and spread hell into their lands so that he can take over.

 

[zup]

More micromanagement? Could you consider balancing this by making him stronger? I find it odd how the archangel of the angel of despair is such a wimp.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Well, yeah, he is obviously a lot stronger (mostly on the offense), even without the Entropy affinity and ability to subjugate demons that come from the Gela (a spell that also requires AV religion, state religion, and Channeling III). In addition to the huge strength increase and ability to Fly the Lord of the Balors has all the abilities of Profane, so he can summon Balors. Balors' can cast the same spells as Ritualists and have both Entropy and Fire affinity, but similarly cannot leave hell terrain.

So, basically my Hyborem is probably a lot scarier than the normal Auric Ascended, except he can be held at bay by casting Sanctify.

 

[xienwolf]

EDIT: Not a worthwhile contribution. I'm tired

 

[deadliver]

A mechanic I liked (but never used myself due to lack of trying) was the dragon cult promotion where the dragon could convert enemy units built in cities with the dc. Have Hyborem do the same thing with AV promoted units.

That would be sick for AV cities and give another reason for people to use inquisitors. Sound cool?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

sounds cool. I liked that mechanic and I guess it fits Hyborem well. you don't even need to change the name of the worldspell this way, "Hyborem's whisper" is perfect

 

[deadliver]

alrighty gekko, get to work on that immediately!

 

[MagisterCultuum]

There is no Ashen Veil promotion, nor has there been for a very long time. Not quite sure what "AV promoted units" are, but I assume you just mean units of that religion.

Copying the python portions of Mesmerize would probably be the easiest way. Just replace "if pUnit.getUnitCombatType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_ANIMAL'):" with "if pUnit.getReligion() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('RELIGION_THE_ASHEN_VEIL'):"

 

[deadliver]

There is no Ashen Veil promotion, nor has there been for a very long time. Not quite sure what "AV promoted units" are, but I assume you just mean units of that religion.

Copying the python portions of Mesmerize would probably be the easiest way. Just replace "if pUnit.getUnitCombatType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNITCOMBAT_ANIMAL'):" with "if pUnit.getReligion() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('RELIGION_THE_ASHEN_VEIL'):"

Yes. Just like with the old dragon cult, any units built in a city that has AV would be tagged so that they could be scooped up later by Hyborem.

What does that string of python mean in Joe the Plumber terms MC? (thanks)

edit: maybe not ALL units built there, assign a chance for the promotion?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

It means it targets units with the AV religion instead of animals.


Assigning a chance to get a certain promotion that makes one vulnerable seems kind of awkward to me, and would give human players who can disband such units an unfair advantage. It isn't hard to do at all (just a couple lines in CvEventManager.py under def onUnitBuilt(self, argsList) ), but I just don't see the point.

I hadn't even considered the possibility to make all units built in a city with AV vulnerable to the spell, just those who actually follow AV religion themselves. When a (living) unit doesn't have a religion by default it has a chance to be randomly assigned one (about 20% chance per religion in the city). Only AV UUs would have a 100% chance of having the religion, and thus being vulnerable to the spell. Order, Empyrean, RoK, FoL, OO, or CoE units that happened to be built in a city where AV was also present would not be vulnerable to the spell.


Also, the Mesmerize spell is already set up to be resistible, so I was assuming that Hyborem's Whisper would be too. It would probably be appropriate to change the line "if pUnit.isResisted(caster, gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_MEZMERIZE_ANIMAL')) == False:" to "if pUnit.isResisted(caster, gc.getInfoTypeForString('SPELL_HYBOREMS_WHISPER')) == False:", but so long as you don't remove the Mesmerize spell and don't make either spell modify the victim's inherent resistance chance it shouldn't make any difference.

 

[deadliver]

Good point about the human aspect/exploit.

My idea is that AV worshippers do not always have to be overt fanatics who run around b ut could also include an insidious element, cultists who hook up with other cultists for when the time is right. Like any other evil religion in potentially unfriendly ground they either try to grab power or go underground and scheme.

Personally I find the city taking system to be awkward (but still cool), especially when it gets cast automatically for you.

As far as religious UUs go, I suppose it makes sense they do not live dual lives.

 

[rocklikeafool]

I think this whole thread is a bad idea.