I am SICK of playing General Custer

[PrinceOfDenver]

Well as usual we have two camps:

1.) People who offer solutions to my quandry.
2.) People who yell "Stop whining ya ******"

So it will always be on internet discussion forums, I supposed.

True, this was posted out of frustration. But I've yet to see an evenly matched battle where the computer didn't give it to itself. Mind you, I've only played a few hours last night.


Wanker - At the risk of sounding diplomatically challenged, bite me. Don't offer advice and insult with the same breath, any good your advice may do will be lost.

Sodak - Oh and about breaking the CD-Rom with a hammer, that was an empty threat. I'm already hooked.

Everyone else - Thanks for the tips. True, ancient times never was a good time to launch war, I'll just expand until I can get decent units. Or I'll give the aztecs a try, those puma units sounds great...

 

[miradus]

Originally posted by WankersRevenge
This is true in contemporary life. I mean, lets look at Afghanastan. The Russians invaded with far superior technology - tanks, helicopters, planes - and they still lost to what is considered the poorest nation in the world.

The poorest nation in the world, with Stinger missiles and other high-tech toys provided to them courtesy of Uncle Sam. Those same toys we're now having thrown back in our face. There's also a certain fact that is completely missing in Civ3 combat ... a will to win. You get no defensive bonuses when defending your home turf, or when fighting in a city that the entire population supports you, ala Colonization. Unit morale basically consists of extra hit points, which if you're already outclassed are going to be eaten up pretty quick anyway.

The combat seems a little out of balance, but not miserably so. I'm more concerned about the things that don't work, like air superiority and coastal fortresses. Don't even get me started on the lack of zone of control and even when you do got zone of control how little damage it does.

 

[zardoz]

I cant be expected to put a line of units on my borders? Originally posted by Bretwalda

Why not? Haven't really put it to much effect yet (just finished 1st full game :crazyeyes) ....but a good offense should first of all be a good defense....I am going to start utilizing more Fortresses (especially on hillsides surrounding towns).....grassland=def value 10<..----..>rugged mountain=def value 100 combined with Fortresses (increased def value of 50%) should provide good defense boost for towns built near areas where there are a couple of mounds at least, (BTW, some of these are good shield and resource areas as well). This might be a worthwhile investment especially for border towns that you especially want to protect while doing most of your offensive unit building in the more protected interior towns. This works well also because some of your less vulnerable outer land-based and coastal towns can be used to increase your cultural expansion at the same time.

Just a thought .... think I will go for it :rocket3:

 

[Jezner]

Wanker - At the risk of sounding diplomatically challenged, bite me.

... tastes like chicken ...

 

[treadwin]

Get a unit with two movement and build a stack. Even without catapults you can take a really annoying city early on. Your units will retreat back if they drop to one point. ( Unless the enemy unit is at one point also )

Zulus are very good for this (impi) also the Aztecs (jag warrior)and the Egyptians (Chariot) a little later on.

With these guys you have to be aggressive early, as this is your time, and you will lose the game, if you pass up on the combat at this period in the game.

If you are having trouble getting started by expansion, pick one of these and be aggressive, you may get a good starting position by eliminating an opponent, rather than by out-expanding them.

 

[Anticos]

I had just the opposite experience in my first game. Playing as Germany, I swarmed over Russia using just bowmen, and put them out of my misery by 2000 BC. Then, in the early 1900's, I declared war on the Persians to get access to coal. I was using Panzers (love those!) and plowing their cities under right and left. The thing that got to me, though, was the Persian Knight unit (yes, a single unit) that attacked AND DEFEATED an elite Panzer unit. Arrgh! I got him back by razing the next three Persian capitals.

 

[beorhtwulf]

Yeah, thing to remember -- it's a whole new ball game. I realized this when a Persian horseman zipped out of the isthmus fortress I was advancing on, went around my pikemen, grabbed two catapults coming up to the lines, and retreated with both of them into the fortress. I also realized this when I hit the horseman rummaging around behind my lines with a longbowman, only to see the little bugger turn and run away (how dare he!). So far though, I only make each mistake once.

Things to remember:

Fast units en masse are deadly. Even horsemen. Even those war chariots we were all convinced were worthless. If they win, they win. If they don't, they live to fight another day. You need fast attack units on defense to beat them, and in your backfield too; the thin shell model of defense doesn't work anymore. But a couple of fast units in your interior can cover it; with the advantage of being able to use the roads you can react to threats very quickly.

'Course, you can do the same to them. My knights ripped through Persia with no casualties, even though they lost a lot of fights. My strategy: hit them with artillery, you probably won't do much damage but you may hit a few of them, and any collateral damage makes the city easier to pacify. This is optional, though. Then send in the fast units. Chances are they won't win, but they'll do a lot of damage, then retreat. Finally, hit them with the close assault troops (swordsmen, longbowmen, etc.). The defenders will be so weakened by the first wave that you will probably not suffer many casualties.

Or if you're playing some civ like Persia, where your fast units are your heavy hitters, time to kick some butt. (There's a reason I kept refusing to give Persia my extra iron....)

So far I have seen no really egregious combat results, one time I lost an elite swordsman to a reg. spearman but these things happen once in a while.

And Bretwalda, I think you may have to fortify the units in the fortress in order for them to take the free shot. Not sure, need to experiment a bit.

 

[Scary Penguin]

Some notes on ancient era combat.

- Combat is unpredictable. Once in a while, you *will* lose your elite swordsman to a normal spearman. Bring lots of troops if you're laying siege to a city.

- Resources matter a lot. If you can cut off your enemy's iron and horses, his reinforcements will suck.

- Don't overlook the power of horsemen. They can grab unprotected workers, pillage roads to cut supply lines, and if you're pretty sure there are no fast defenders in a city or stack, you can use 3 or 4 of them to soften up the defenders before you move in with the ground troops.

- Swordsmen are great, in sufficient numbers. First to swordsmen looks like more of an advantage to me than first to musketeers.

- Use the terrain. If there's a mountain right next to the enemy city, park your troops on it.

- Use mixed troops. If your horsemen end up stuck outside the city/stack after wiping out some annoying jaguar warrrior, have an extra spearman ready to move out and cover them until they can make it back.

 

[Jezner]

You make some great suggestions penguin. In assaulting in enemy stronghold, I fall back on my old Civ strategies (ie, buid up a massive amount of one type of unit, then assault) I have never thought to mix it up and just be reading your post, the strategic implications are enormous. When going through the unit list, I am immediatly attracted to the highest offensive unit.

There's nothing worse for me to do a massive buildup only to be crushed, and then . . do a massive buildup again. Your strategy seems to work counter that.

Great advice.

 

[Poochface]

I was initially annoyed with this as well but not anymore. The trick is not to wage war right away in the game. I was able to wage war successfully later in the game by swarming my enemies with swordsmen, later with knights, and later with infantry. The key word is swarm. The game heavily favors defenders now (which makes sense) so you have to make sure you have enough units to take down the guards in a city or whatever.

If its any consolation, I don't think combat gets made any harder on the harder difficulty levels (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[starfox]

Thanks to all of you for the enlighting advice.

I'm eager to start building my first fortress, mix up troops, and use fast troops to fight back from my fortified city.

You gave me all the answers and now I wish I could go home and play civ

 

[ironfang]

You gotta learn combined arms tactics. It is really the only way. Here is why.

There are really four types of units (for medival and ancient times), and you need to learn the distinct advantages and disadvantages of each before even deciding to declare war.

Offensive: Archers and Longbowmen. Ok to attack with, cheap, but are dog meat when attacked.

Defensive: Spearmen, Pikemen, Musketeer. Good when attacked.

Artillery: Catapults and Cannons. Good for defending cities (bombard them before they attack you) and good for softening up cities (but you MUST attack on the SAME round as the bombardment).

Skirmishing: Horsemen and Knights. Moderately High attack, low defense, but they have the ability to retreat. These units add a COMPLETELY new dynamic to combat in CIV. If you dont know how to use these types of units, then you are going to lose in combat. End of story.

Aside from all of that, you need to learn how to build a military along side of a large, and advanced civilization. If you neglect your military for even a short period of time, you are going to end up somebodies 8!tch, unless you keep good aliances... so many strategies... so much fun.

ironfang

 

[Gray]

regarding units in fortresses attacking passing units: i believe they have to be fortified, but this does not automatically mean they will attack passing units. last night, one of my illustrious immortals was fortified in a fortress outside a city i had recently procured from the less deserving zulu. in one round 6 zulu units moved passed my immortal and he attacked two of them (each for 1 hit point of damage). i am not sure if there is a way to make them attack more frequently (or all the time), but if anyone has some info then by all means let's hear it...

one thing to remember, this new combat system can be deceiving. i lost that recently procured city above back to the zulu, who were attacking with impi, warriors, and horseman only... I had a vet. musketman, 2 elite immortals in the city, an elite longbowman, and and army (with one elite and two vet knights) and one vet (briefly elite before expiring) calvary all stationed in the city.

with seemingly endless waves of these crappy bottom end units (they were all vets-as if that makes me feel better!?!), especially the horseman, the AI retook the darn city. but, this illustrates the effectiveness of the tactics from earlier posts, the zulu horseman wore me down slowly but surely and their base attack units killed my units that were techincally far superior! imagine my chagrin when, after multiple battles and victories, I lost Darius and my mighty army to a freakin warrior!!!

so, in short, when going to war expect to lose some troops, even when you outclass your enemy you can still lose and lose decisively. remember and utilize the strengths of your troops and augment them with other units to defend against their weaknesses.

 

[starfox]

Originally posted by ironfang
so many strategies... so much fun.

ironfang

and you forget: ...so little time

 

[FirstNoel]

I fairly new at the whole Civ thing...heck I finally bought Civ2 about 2 months ago (hey for $10 it a bargain!).

I now have CivIII...and I'm still learning. There are a few things I'm realizing.

1. Learn about your units capabilities early.
I'm still trying to get this down.

2. Keep your neighbors happy, Until your strong enough to attack.
I've started a few accidental wars by stealing workers...thus getting my butt kicked a little too early.

3. Realize it's just a game...this can be tough
I'm known to curse up a storm at the screen...for what? It really doesn't help me out, and the AI couldn't care less.


I'm just glad these strategy messages are here...all my strategies so far stink...

It seems I'll be busy for the next few months...


Sean D.

 

[Sarcastro]

Originally posted by ironfang
You gotta learn combined arms tactics. It is really the only way. Here is why.

I agree absolutely, and I'll go into my thoughts in a moment.

Artillery: Catapults and Cannons... and good for softening up cities (but you MUST attack on the SAME round as the bombardment).

Artillery is useful when attacking a city for more than just this. For instance, I made a Normandy-style landing against the Germans on the small Earth map recently, and used my ironclads to first destroy all the coastal improvements (i.e. roads) in the space I was going to make my landing. Then I landed a dozen units, including a worker, who set to work throwing up a fortress.

I then used my landed artillery to blow away all the roads in range of the fortress, to slow down counterattacks. So my fortress became virtually impregnable, with only fast units able to get in and attack in one turn (and they would, in turn, be fired upon by the artillery automatically when they attacked), and slow units having to pause in the no-road zone, where they were easy fodder for my artillery and then cavalry.

Once the counterattacks stopped, I turned my artillery's attention to Berlin itself, which was within range of the fortress. I spent several turns hitting the city, destroying improvements (causing civil disorder) and killing citizens. After a few turns of this, I fired my artillery one last time to try to hurt the defenders, and then attacked with cavalry and infantry. Easy success. I razed that bastard and captured like nine workers (who were promptly put onto boats back to the motherland in Africa in a bit of delicious historical irony), and it wouldn't have been possible without using bombardment in several different ways.

So I agree with you that artillery is essential to city assaults, but I'd emphasize it even further.

I have not yet gotten to the modern era, so I don't know how air power will play into this equation, but it is obvious from my personal observations and from reading the comments of others that successful wars, particularly across oceans, will absolutely rely upon good combined-arms tactics.

So for those who complain, get out of your Civ 2 "brute force" rut and start using your brains to plan your attacks. I think this is a much better game because of this level of difficulty.

 

[Malys Faisent]

I oftimes use the same exact strategy that the computer uses against it...I've attacked with swarms of low-end units, especially horsemen...to weaken and take cities.

 

[papajohns]

i cant understand why so many people complain about the combat.. its not bad at all...yes..the randomness should still be tweaked so the more advanced units have a bias vs the lower tech guys, but in general the system is pretty good...

for the original poster.....
ever heard of artillery fire? since the invention of the catapult you should get a couple of those to help in your attacks....they do help a lot in softening the target..that way, your archers dont have to go head to head with a healthy unit.... and as for defending cities..just get a horse unit to mop up...if you have a unit in your own city and they are outside rampaging and pillaginig your roads..well..DUH!... wouldnt you think in real life that would happen too? thats why people keep some mobile forces too in the cities so they can go out and scare the attackers away....

the combat system is ok..the tactics is what need a bit tweaking here

 

[ironfang]

I know I could have emphasize artillery a little more, but for me, not doing any D-Day style invasions, I dont like to ruin improvements (if at all possible).

Artillery is good for reducing defenses and destroying city improvements. A large city being reduced by artillery fire to under 7 loses its %50 defense bonus for size. This is takes away an advantage from the defender.

Also artillery has defensive value that is often not looked at. Artillery can be used to pound incomming units that try and recapture a city. And if all else fails, it can be used to destroy improvements.

ironfang

 

[ruprecht]

In the initial russian invasion of Chechnya in the early 90's armor was sent in without infantry escorts. The tank drivers were draftees that didn't know squat about tank warfare. The Chechyans swarmed the tanks and slaughtered the crews (sometimes using swords believe it or not).

That's probably the closest analogy to the spearman vs. tanks fiasco you're describing.