I am SICK of playing General Custer

[Bratishka]

"This is true in contemporary life. I mean, lets look at Afghanastan. The Russians invaded with far superior technology - tanks, helicopters, planes - and they still lost to what is considered the poorest nation in the world. "


uh, see how amerkanas do it now have you ever been in mountainous country? i bet you not, cos you sounded like long tongue chickenman. tell me your nationality, 80% that at war you surrender without a can of beer


"In the initial russian invasion of Chechnya in the early 90's armor was sent in without infantry escorts. The tank drivers were draftees that didn't know squat about tank warfare. The Chechyans swarmed the tanks and slaughtered the crews (sometimes using swords believe it or not).

That's probably the closest analogy to the spearman vs. tanks fiasco you're describing."

Funny, seems that all your voises and knowledge are just CNN and Discovery cuouple of facts

Why these bandits should fight with a swords if they commonly have better equipment that Russian troops? It's not like that now, but a few years ago ....

Always remember that fighting in mountains is hell, planes will never win a war, amerikanas should remember that. talibs will get a lot of skalps before Amerika get any success


Civ is just a game - it want make you stronger or better:skull:

luck to all brightheads

 

[ironfang]

Someone sound supset at the following facts;

1. America is MUCH better at conducting war than the Soviet Union EVER was.
2. America has moved FAR BEYOND the technological realm of the former Soviet Union and their predicessors.
3. America may get out of Afgahnistan with very little loss of AMERICAN life.

As for civ3... I cant wait to set sail for Russia.

ironfang

 

[Dipolmatic Spy]

I've been reading all that you people are saying and it seems that you forgot one important aspect of the game, armies. Groups of stacked units that have a great advantage of single units, I think if you try this out, you might find the game a little easier.

 

[Bratishka]

Originally posted by ironfang
Someone sound supset at the following facts;

1. America is MUCH better at conducting war than the Soviet Union EVER was.
2. America has moved FAR BEYOND the technological realm of the former Soviet Union and their predicessors.
3. America may get out of Afgahnistan with very little loss of AMERICAN life.

As for civ3... I cant wait to set sail for Russia.

ironfang

1. please write all Amerikan victories (islanders )
2. we were not behind, we hade own computers and stuff, but that not too much really, i am not saying about military - yours was/is worser. Su27>F15 - Meiers mistake
3. just because taliban do not have our PVO(AA) systems - but you will have losses - Northern Alliance ad Bombers won't win war for you

Soviet forsces hade near fifteen thousand losses (much less than talibs) - and they fought mostly with ground troops, talibs were supported by You, Turks, Pakistan and more - our mission was not killing one person, but completle eleminate bandits - much harder mission, isn't it?

Uh, more,
your soldiers live to well to fight risking their lifes , no?

 

[ironfang]

I hate to be divergent, however.

American Victories:

-- Germany (WWI 1917-1919 + WWII 1941-1944)
-- Hungary (WWI)
-- Japan (WWII 1941-1944)
-- N. Korea (1950+)
-- England (American Revolution)
-- Spain (Spanish-American War)
-- French (French-Indian War)
-- Italy (WWII 1940-1944)
-- Mexico (Mexican-American War 1846-1848)
-- Austria (WWI 1917-1919)
-- Iraq (Gulf War 1990)
-- Soviet Union (Cold War 1950-1991)

Do you need me to go on?

Americans are considered the "war mongers" of the world arent they? Doesnt this kinda tell you how ready and willing we are to fight? Sorry Breshnev, take a look at America. A SERIOUS look. We have been dreaming for someone else to shoot at for years! We have more people die in one year from Gun violence than the other countries locked in war! You think we dont have the courage to shoot at some AK wielding cave dwellers???

ironfang

 

[Gray]

"-- Japan (WWI + WWII 1941-1944)"


Ironfang, unless I am wrong... and I am not. Japan was on our side in WWI.

In fact, we were their best strategic trading partner until we said no more oil in 1941-which led to Pearl Harbor and the ultimate destruction of their imperial dreams.

 

[Scary Penguin]

We're way off topic, but:

1 - The Soviet Union, Britain, and Alexander were all able to conquer Afghanistan with relatively little difficulty: The challenge is holding on to it once they had it. Conquest is no small problem, but the bigger problem is the "nation building" that has to come next.

2 - American soldiers will risk their lives when they believe the country is threatened directly. (Actually, they will whenever ordered to: the real question is whether the American voters at home will risk the soldier's lives). The Pacific campaign in WWII is a good example of the meat grinder that they will walk into to protect the homeland.

What lessons does this give us for Civ3?

1 - Mountains slow down your high-tech speedy troops and allow relatively weak defenders to hold out longer than you think. However, if you take your time to gather a sizeable force and soften up the defenders with artillery or bombers, you can do it.

2 - Holding on to a distant land is a pain and a half. Corruption means you had better plan on setting aside a lot of cash if you want to get anything built, and the culture effects of the nation you're invading means you will need to build a lot of cultural improvements fast, while under attack from the remaining forces. You can't garrison too many troops in the city, or you might lose them all if a city revolts, but if you don't garrison them, you won't be able to quell resistance in time to build the culture improvements. Plan ahead, and have a plan for what you will do with the cities once you conquer them.

 

[ironfang]

I agree. Civ3 has taught me the way to win afgahnistan -- Cultural Improvements.

Air Drop the FOllowing:

- Indoor Plumbing
- Play Station
- Ford Explorers
- Central Air

(to heck with temples and libraries)

ironfang

 

[tetley]

Hee hee yeah, I think you're onto something.

I propose we debug Civ3 and then airdrop it over Afghanistan. That'll put the entire Al Qaeda network out of business for the next year.

 

[dozenlong]

Hehehe

Sadly enough, I hate to admit it, Civ3 does have that bit of realism in it, especially at the huge map level. It's obnoxious at the small level to not be able to control a city 14 squares away, but in the huge level (with the scale adjusted), it makes sense.

How about you airdrop the playstation 2s on my apartment

 

[Suvorov]

Originally posted by ironfang
I hate to be divergent, however.

American Victories:

-- Germany (WWI 1917-1919 + WWII 1941-1944)
-- Hungary (WWI)
-- Japan (WWII 1941-1944)
-- N. Korea (1950+)
-- England (American Revolution)
-- Spain (Spanish-American War)
-- French (French-Indian War)
-- Italy (WWII 1940-1944)
-- Mexico (Mexican-American War 1846-1848)
-- Austria (WWI 1917-1919)
-- Iraq (Gulf War 1990)
-- Soviet Union (Cold War 1950-1991)


Whoops - no mention of Vietnam there

Afghanistan was Russia's Vietnam. I think both countries learnt an important lesson in these wars. If you're going to fight, you must have total commitment.

And before you talk about the fortitude of America's fighting men (i do not question it) seeking to denigrate Russia, do not forget it was Russia who truly won the war against the Germans in WWII.

 

[tetley]

It's no big deal anyway, but if you're going to say that about Russia beating Germany, then you should
probably go on and say that it was in fact GERMANY who beat Germany in WW2. Hitler's numbskull
decisions probably lost the war for them more than any Russian T-34 tank ever did. I mean, just to
scratch the surface:

1) Switching the Luftwaffe from airfield targets to civilian targets in the Battle of Britain. Oh
no, we'll just ignore those radar installations and bomb those houses instead. Ah well, so much
for defeating Great Britain.
2) Launching Operation Barbarossa against Russia in the first place. IDIOT!!! Great Britain was
still standing. Oh yeah, don't bother bringing along any winter gear, either--little Germany's
going to beat Russia before the first winter comes.
3) Ordering "no retreat" at Stalingrad and Kursk. Germany's two worst losses of the war in terms of
men. All you had to do was retreat....
4) Putting von Rundstedt in charge of Normandy instead of Rommel. And then personally commanding a
Panzer division just 20 miles away from Omaha Beach when they first land. Hitler won't order them
to counterattack and drive the Americans back into the water because he needs his "beauty sleep."
5) Killing Rommel. Yeah Hitler, real smart, man. And guess why they weren't getting along?
Because Rommel disobeyed Hiter and retreated from North Africa when they were getting annihilated.

 

[Essex]

Originally posted by ironfang
I hate to be divergent, however.

American Victories:

-- Germany (WWI 1917-1919 + WWII 1941-1944)
-- Hungary (WWI)
-- Japan (WWII 1941-1944)
-- N. Korea (1950+)
-- England (American Revolution)
-- Spain (Spanish-American War)
-- French (French-Indian War)
-- Italy (WWII 1940-1944)
-- Mexico (Mexican-American War 1846-1848)
-- Austria (WWI 1917-1919)
-- Iraq (Gulf War 1990)
-- Soviet Union (Cold War 1950-1991)


Whoops - no mention of Vietnam there

Heh, also no mention of the War of 1812 a brief history of which is below


The War of 1812 is one of the forgotten wars of the United States. The war lasted for over two years, and while it ended much like it started; in stalemate; it was in fact a war that once and for all confirmed American Independence. The offensive actions of the United States failed in every attempt to capture Canada . On the other hand, the British army was successfully stopped when it attempted to capture Baltimore and New Orleans. There were a number of American naval victories in which American vessels proved themselves superior to similarly sized British vessels. These victories coming after victories in the Quasi War (an even more forgotten war) launched American naval traditions.

Of course, if the US invaded Canada now I dont think we would last long

 

[ironfang]

Yeah Vietnam was the lost war from the beginning. Sun Tzu would have explained that from the very beginning.

Vietnam worked backwards.
- Land troops.
- Build up your forces.
- Develop strategy.

War of 1812
- Yeah that sucked too. Its better that we didnt conquor canada. They are close allies, like brothers. Even though we have different governments, it really doesnt matter all that much.

BTW, what wars did the Soviets win???

ironfang

 

[Bretwalda]

Hmm... about history then... (offtopic)

American Victories:

-- Germany (WWI 1917-1919 + WWII 1941-1944)

Dates? I believe WWI ended in 1918; WWII in 1945 (for the States as well...)

-- Hungary (WWI)

It's Austro-Hungarian Monarchy that you are refering to. But then, why leave out the rest of the combatants: Bulgaria and Turkey? or you could have written Central Powers...

-- Japan (WWII 1941-1944)

...and Axis in instead of listing some of the losing power in WWII.

-- N. Korea (1950+)

Write Korea (50-53), and it wont be a victory any more... It was probably the bloodiest stalemate! And dont even mention General McArthur here...

-- England (American Revolution)

Fine. Somehow you have gotto get started... By the way can anyone tell my why you call it a REVOLUTION?

-- Spain (Spanish-American War)

OK.

-- French (French-Indian War)

I dunno much about American continental history, but why was this an American war?

-- Italy (WWII 1940-1944)

WWII again ...

-- Mexico (Mexican-American War 1846-1848)

Cool.

-- Austria (WWI 1917-1919)

WWI again.

-- Iraq (Gulf War 1990)

Cool.

-- Soviet Union (Cold War 1950-1991)

It was not quite a war... C'mon there were quite a lots of other factors, not to mention countries (to say a bit about us, the Hungarian revolution of '56) that helped a bit.

America is a great country but to be just: in the 50s the only way to stop the Soviets before the ocean would be to nuke Europe. Soviet tanks would have rolled through...

Dont underestimate Russian strenght: USA needs Russia's help right now in Asganistan, as well... (its good to be a son of a small nation, its easier to be objectve...

 

[Zannhart]

aaaaa

 

[Hitman78]

I'm not too sure about this war either, but I do believe it was the French and Indians against the US.

Considering the US wasn't even a country at the time, No. And it wasn't JUST the British vs. France, it was also fought in Europe but is referred to the 7 years war. Prussia got their asses kicked

It was pretty much the first world war...

 

[slasher_X88]

im also playing cheiftain (first time with a civ game) and i just wiped out a whole civ with veteran archers- sumtimes they would even wiin against fortified regular spearman). I'm playing as germany, and all the other civs are GRACIOUS towards me and im the most tech advanced...life in Germany is good...

 

[Scary Penguin]

Three points

1) If people want to comment on war generally, I suggest that they add a paragraph explaining some relevance of their point to Civ. (E.g., what does the war of 1812 teach us?). It's not that hard to do, and it's actually a fun exercise. (C.f. point 3, below)

2) I don't think anyone denigrated the quality or resolve of the Russian soldiers. (We could talk about whether invading Budapest was a good thing or not, but that would take us forever, so let's not). They have traditionally suffered a tech disadvantage against Europe, had to fight at the end of rediculous supply lines against the Far East, and often suffered a near-criminal lack of support from Moscow (cf. the first Chechnya (sp?) campaign or the Kursk). With that said, they have fought extremely bravely on numerous occasions, and might be holding Afghanistan today if it wasn't for the West arming the mujahadin rebels.

3) Obligatory cCiv point: I wish there was some way to transfer high tech units to fight your proxy wars, like the US transfers of stingers to the mujahadin. In my current game, Rome is basically one of my client states, and every other civ has declared war on it. I'd love to give Rome 2 or 3 modern armor and watch the sparks fly.

 

[Suvorov]

Yes, it would be good if you could arm revolutionaries in CIV3. You could "give" units in CIV2 (which would magically be transported across the world instantly), and release Mind Worms back into the wild in SMAC - both legitimate and very fun tactics. Perhaps a way to supply barbarian villages with arms provided they attack your enemy? Or build barbarian villages of your own on the enemy continent or something?