I cannot wrap my brain around variants

[jeffred1111]

Some background info: I've been playing for fun (ie. not browsing strat forums/developping bad habits) since the very first title in the franchise, back in the days. I got a few victories at Deity at civ II and I picked up civ III a few years ago (2004?). I hated it at first : it doesn't play at ALL like civ II, mainly because of the need of an all-out REX to grab ressources/land. I picked it up recently and beat Monarch even with mountainous, crappy starts. Emperor, I'd say 90-95%, the rest being the AI launching/culture before I get the chance for dom/conquest/diplo. Deity, I've yet to try.

That it to say, I suck at anything else than crazy warmongering with a huge empire and the 300 arty/cav gambit is getting old. Especially on huge maps, where victory is not difficult as much as it is tedious. Especially since I have 1.07f version wich lacks any "move all" command (I ordered civ complete though). Turns take upwards of 3 hours a lot of times, and that's before the modern era sometimes.

I've thus started to try variants (AW, 5CC, etc.) but I really can't beat anything, even at Regent ! I'd post a save, but it's not my game playing comp. But I still have a few questions, namely with 5CC, pinning for a 20k:

a) How important is it to expand rapidly ? A lot of times, I say to myself, especially in a 20k game, that I need fewer (a lot fewer) cities and can thus concentrate on MP/infra sooner. But that later comes in to me in the pants when I find myself boxed in by expansionist civs. Last game, the Russian, Chinese and English all started less than 25 tiles from my first city (Pangea, 70% water.) I was lucky and had horses + 2 luxes, but no iron and no real food rich spots. Brokering got me the tech lead, but with crappy cities that can't produce military, I was soon overwhelmed by the English and Russians. I think it's the first time the AI got me in Regent.

Thing is, Continents/Archi aren't optimal since tech trading is sometimes difficult, if not impossible before the late MA, and researching a full era alone with 5CC doesn't strike me as feasible. Altough forgoing any military seems like the way to go.

b) I know that the GL is THE wonder to have, but very often, I can't pull this off before 0AD, wich means the 1k bonus starts to get less and less appealing. Even with a prebuild, or my prebuild gets lost in the freaking cascade. I probably could cut this by going expansionist, but in a 5CC variant, this is a wasted trait. And religious seems to be a must in Vanilla (for the cheap temple ultra early). Am I right ? Leader fishing also doesn't yield the expeced results, getting my ass beaten down mercilessly.

c) What city placement ? I get that I want loose/looser to avoid wasting tiles and to have as much land as possible for future ressources popping, but with only 4 cities building military, I guess not to loose to help defensive purposes.

That's mainly what is troubling me. Also, with 1.07f, I simply CANNOT abandon a city, so this makes it even more difficult. This makes republic a real hassle: SOD at the gates with my defenses playing zone defense on another border...

Also, on another note, are there still any SG activity for newbies such as myself ? I see some SG games going on, but all of them are on Deity or have crazy variants wich I cannot win solo (or even both )

PS: I've read the articles on how to win 20k and 5CC in the war academy.

 

[dexters]

I don't have the stamina to play this game on a very methodical basis, though I've gained a lot of familiarity with it over the years as I usually spend 1-2 months annually playing this game before moving to other games, my suggestion is to play a variant you like.

The example of variants you listed are essentially artificial challenges expert players place on themselves to increase difficulty within a specific difficulty setting. Because of the way the game treats difficulty levels (straight discounts in research/buildings and prod bonus/free unit supports) it's not always as fun to jump a level, rather than to stick to a difficulty a player is familiar with and simply play a variant with special human created rules to increase difficulty/challenge.

There are a lot of less popular, less codified variants floating around that may interest you more. Including the playbook I have written up called the Machiavellian Doctrine. I've been told its essentially a variant, but I like to think of it more as a more complex way to approach Civ3 instead of shooting for a specific coded victory condition the Machiavellian player uses all the tools available to create conditions in the game that is favorable. It is probably more suitable in larger maps with more AI players as a big part of the fun comes from helping out the laggards and profiting from them.

I apologize in advance that I didn't answer your questions directly, but I would like to add that you should consider getting Civ3 complete or find the Conquests expansion. The expansion patching was dropped midway through so there's a few unresolved bugs, but overall it provides a much richer Civ3 experience than you're probably enjoying now.

 

[Spoonwood]

You don't need a whole lot of cities for a 20k really. Most 20k players probably prefer archipelago. I know I certainly do. The AI does NOT do naval invasions well, so you can more easily defend your 20k city. On top of this, on archipelago maps the tech pace goes slower. Consequently, you can more easily build more wonders without any cascades happening. On top of this, you can often get all the contacts without the other AIs knowing each other. So, you can control the tech pace much more easily. If you play archipelago, you really want a seafaring tribe (oh... you only play Vanilla... seafaring comes in Conquests). That way you have Alphabet right away for curraghs and you have faster curraghs. 80% archipelago also makes things easier. The Great Library makes for a good wonder, but really I think the best wonder for a 20k game comes as the Statue of Zeus. It has a really good shield/culture ratio, you can get it fairly early, and it gives you extra military. Oh, that's also only available in Conquests. Well, if you ever play Conquests, here's a good article for you http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=162674

 

[TheOverseer714]

Drum up a couple other players and I can re-start my series, I went on hold due to a lack of interest mostly. I recommend playing for a Space or Diplomatic victory if 20k isn't doing it for you. 20k is a whole differet animal, but it is doable in Vanilla or Conquests. Actually in Vanilla 20k can go faster if you get lots of leaders. Go with Persia on a Pangaea, beat up your neighbors with Immortals, and feed your 20k city with rushed wonders. You usually beat up your neighbors, why stop? Just do it for profit.

 

[vmxa]

He has 1.07 so no one will be able to play any save. Once you get complete, then you can post a save and it can be loaded.

There are a number of SG's that use xCC of one type or another. Huge maps are a pain, but in C3 they are smaller than Conquest, it is even more work in C3C. I like to tell players to master std maps, then try other sizes as the game was designed for std maps.

A few interface improvements were incorporated in C3C that help with play.

 

[Optional]

Thing is, Continents/Archi aren't optimal since tech trading is sometimes difficult, if not impossible before the late MA..

Tech trading is easier on those maps. On Pangaea AI-AI contact is established very soon, making it more likely that the human player misses out. On sea maps, you really need to get your boats out asap, and even risk sinking at sea in attempts to reach civs that are further out. The AI doesn't take those risks, so you are at an advantage. You should be able to get many contacts earlier, giving you a huge advantage in trade.
In Conquests those advantages are even easier to gain if you're seafaring, and Conquests has curraghs that can be built earlier than galleys, but even in Vanilla you should be able to gain a trade advantage on a sea map.

b) I know that the GL is THE wonder to have..

I'm not so sure about that, although I never played 5CC. I would only build it if I couldn't keep up with the AI in technology otherwise. In an ordinary game, that means the Great Library starts to get interesting at Deity level, but not below that.
The advantage that the GL gives looks interesting, but you're only getting obsolete, untradeable techs. As soon as you can still now and then beat the AI to a tech, you can use that tech in trade and diplomacy to gain significant advantages.

My hunch is that you haven't explored the diplomatic possibilities in this game fully. That's difficult as well, if you've only got Vanilla 1.07f, because this game is very difficult to play seriously without a helper program like CivAssistII, but that only works on fully patched up games. The problem without a program like that is that you have to click on every civ individually every turn to find out what your trade options are, which is a nuisance; you don't want to do that for fun. CivAssistII, but Mapstat as well, gives all your options every turn with one click of the finger. That's indispensable, because you really need that knowledge to play diplomatically well.

A succession game would certainly also help you. If you're up for that, you should really give a shout in that part of the forum when you've got your fully patched up Conquests (Complete = patched up).

 

[krakedhalo]

I think Jeffred was talking about getting the GL for 20k games and the 6cpt early, so it can double early.

And Overseer, I'd definitely play in a restarted SGFN series. I've never played one, and got interested just after SGOTM14 started.

 

[TheOverseer714]

I think Jeffred was talking about getting the GL for 20k games and the 6cpt early, so it can double early.

And Overseer, I'd definitely play in a restarted SGFN series. I've never played one, and got interested just after SGOTM14 started.

I am preparing to start the next one, it would be at DG with no special rules, with a goal of a Space victory. I would be happy to accept some new blood. DG is challenging, but I guarantee that we'll get tons of advice from the many excellent players on this site.

Edit: I have opened a thread in the Succession Games forum, so if you are interested, please stop by.

 

[Optional]

I think Jeffred was talking about getting the GL for 20k games and the 6cpt early, so it can double early.

Yes, you're right, I overlooked that. I'm afraid my remarks were more about the regular game. For 20K, which I've never played, I suspect the GL is still quite vital.
I think I would postpone trading Writing, and certainly never trade Literature if I was going for the Great Library. The AI often ignores Literature for quite a while, so even on a tough difficulty level clinching the Great Library is quite doable.

 

[jeffred1111]

Update: I got Complete and let me tell you that it is WORLDS apart when it comes to tech pace/research compared to the Vanilla 1.07f version: techs are much more difficult to buy, if not impossible, on Pangea even when everyone and their dog have a tech unless you go for a monopoly, and even then, the have no money to retribute you once you are the sole possessor of a tech. This means that I've taken a liking to water rich maps: the curragh is very cool for this. The Philosophy free tech also has a huge impact on what I go for. Before, Pangea or big continents, for the cheap techs once everyone had it, was almost a no brainer for my dom games, but now with the Seafaring traits and the vastly upgraded boats in the sail era, not so much.

Remember that in Vanilla, civs exchange contacts and maps WAY sooner than in C3C (awhole age before), so this means that with 1.07f, if you were the lone guy on some faraway island and there were 3 civs bunched up on an island, you were basically screwed unless you managed to find them and go for some pointy stick research. No boats before Map Making and the tendency for the AI to never explore meant that I sometimes wouldn't enter the MA before 500 or even 600 AD.

In my current game, as the Dutch (Monarch, to ge tthe feel of the game), I was a Republic around 700 BC and I don't think I've ever traded maps or contacts, wich definately played to my advantage. The Zulus in my game don't even know of the existence of the English and I'm a few % away from dom (61-62?). The AI also suprised me by actually dropping more than two units on my home soil. I saw (semi-scary) stacks try to get to my capitol. Stacks that arrived by boat. Huge improvement and more fun all-around.

I'm game for a SG, but I need to get my feet wet at Complete before. What do I do ? Just show there with an idea for a SG and form a roster ? I'm not sure people would be too hot for a straight Emperor game.

 

[TheOverseer714]

SGs are great for learning, the lurkers give great advice and contact with team members lets you in on their thinking. If you can handle Vanilla Emperor solo, Complete at DG is very workable. I've never won DG solo, but have in SGs. Playing 10 turns at a time lets you focus on the gameplay and minimizes the impact of mistakes. Play some quick games at Emperor with Small or Tiny worlds to get used to Complete. You'll love how much more effective armies are, for one. Lethal bombers are sweet too, and Maces are much cheaper than Knights. Trebuchets come between Catapults and Cannons, and bombardment is better. Give it a try...

 

[krakedhalo]

Another big thing to keep on eye on in your first few Complete games is the role of specialists in your cities. In Vanilla, you'd just get one science beeker or one gold or one happy face for a specialist. In Conquests, you get 3 sci beekers or two gold, or, later, two shields with civil engineers (with Rep. Parts I think?) or two less corruption with police. These can really change things depending on what type of victory you're going for.

 

[Spoonwood]

In Conquests you can't trade Maps until Navigation and you can't trade contacts until Printing Press.