I Fall Behind in Tech

When your game shows you making 10 gpt, that's what the AI bases it's own tech selling requests on. Something that I would definitely try in your case, is to temporarily set science spending to 0%, so that your gpt goes to 40 or 50. It could be that you are priced just barely outside of their selling price in terms of gpt. Maybe they want 11 gpt for currency,.e.g. If you are only showing 10, they won't offer you the 11 gpt deal. At least that way, you can see if anyone will sell at any price. If nobody wants to sell even at that gpt, or their gpt is too high, just change the slider back and you've lost nothing.
 
Oh, and of course, if you do buy it for say 20 gpt and 100 gold, be sure to note in advance which other civs, if any, don't have it. Immediately, on the same turn, turn around to those civs and try to sell it to them. Any amount you get helps offset your cost.

Unlike Civ I & II, it is almost impossible to get a large lead in tech over the AI's. The most I've ever been ahead is maybe 3-4 techs, and that doesn't usually happen until late in the game if when most AI's have been killed off. In almost every game I play on Monarch, I am very lucky to be even with them before the Modern Era.
 
I think you should suck it up and stop your research. Techs that all the other civs have become quite affordable. Plus gpt deals make friends! Sometimes I will hire a scientist to research a government tech, or a strong military tech at min (e.g. 40 turns) because the AI seems to value these highly. I only research if I am within 1 or 2 techs of the leader and then I go as quick as I can afford so I can trade it around for the other techs I lack, luxuries, and gpt deals.
 
Originally posted by ripcord_tx
... Let's say it's around 500AD, you're a monarchy with science set at around 40%. You're researching Currency in 16 turns. You have 100 gold in the bank, making 10 per turn.

Ripcord, you have said you are playing on Regent level so I will combine that with your question quoate above and say that if you are at 500AD in Monarchy and only generating 10 gpt then you are a dead duck.

I won't take you out of context, but in reality you have to forget about everything that you are currently focused on and back up to before 1000BC and fix your management problems in that area.

On Regent Level by 1000 BC, you can be at 6 to 8 towns generating easily in excess of 25 gpt and by 500 AD in Monarchy you should easily be up between 50 and 100 gpt.

I play mostly on Emperor level and just checked a number of different save files from recent tournament and GOTM games all in the circa 500AD time frame and found these examples -
45 gpt (small map:extreme warmonger with almost no mktplaces:military:religious:monarchy)
288 gpt (standard map:builder:commercial:religious:republic)
126 gpt (tiny map:warmonger/builder:military:religious:monarchy)
297 gpt (standard map:warmonger:commercial:industrious:monarchy)

In a number of these games my civ is already operating within 5%to 10% of the domination territory limit.

You have got to get your city count up and and probably pack your city density in at the 12 to 18 tile average. You absolutely have to get your utilization of the 4 to 6 most powerful tiles in each town location up to near its max value.

Building wealth in your situation is like selling blood plasma to buy crack cocaine, diet cokes, and ding-dongs. And it only speeds your death.

On regent you should be successfully doing your own research except when you have gone the Great Library/Warmonger route by choice.

I feel your pain and you sound frustrated, but trust me on this one, your problem has absolutely nothing to do with 500 AD and how you trade or set your research at that time. Your problem is back in the 4000BC to 2000BC time frame and the management decisions you made in terms or how your put your civ together.

Try downloading the GOTM8 replay scenario to test your start positions skills against the German and Russian examples that are covered in detail in the article. Once you grasp these basics all the other light bulbs will flash on for you.
 
Ripcord - I think one of the things is that you aren't building enough workers. You want lots of workers. You said your son builds alot of workers and he expands fast, you should do the same. To quote one person around here ;) "Workers are the most powerful unit in the game" (except for settlers). You need workers laying down roads, so your settlers don't take so long to get where they are going, roads for increased commerce (and science), mining for more shields, irrigating those plains, etc. I like to have at least 1 worker/city. I will stay with 1 worker for my first 2-3 cities, but then I set aside 1 city to pump out almost nothing but workers. You can also buy workers from the AI if you want to check with them every turn to see if they have any for sale. They usually cost anywhere from 25-30 gp (price varies on things like reputation, attitude, culture, etc.), but they cost no upkeep, so even though they are slower, they don't cost you anything for the rest of the game.

When my worker gets to a tile, if one of my cities will be using that tile soon (or already is using), I mine (or irrigate if on plains) it before building the road. Shields are usually harder to come by in the early game than gold. By building the mine first I get more shields sooner and that helps with building your settlers, military units. If you are going to be building settlers so that they are complete everytime your city hits size 3, then you should only improve 2 or 3 tiles for that city, then move onto the next city and improve 2-3 tiles for that city's terrain. Of course you don't want your workers straying too far from your capital, because building mines in your high corrupt cities is nowhere near as powerful as mining your capital's terrain, but you should still have some workers connecting your cities and building roads EVERYWHERE.

For my first few cities I just build warriors as defenders, then later when my cities are more productive (because of improved terrain) I can squeeze in some spearman. All those warriors you can later upgrade to swordsmen. Build cities on rivers whenever possible, as this helps alot with commerce and getting cities past size 6. Hook up luxuries as soon as possible.

On large maps you will want to rely more on horses for any wars, because of their mobility to cover all that territory. Horsemen -->Knights-->Cavalry is a very good way to go on the larger maps.
 
I uploaded a Quickstart for GOTM XII this evening. I can't seem to find a forum to discuss where I could have done things better.
 
as far as falling behind in tech is concerned, i think enough has been said here to get you going in the right direction...but here are my thoughts anyway...

if you are playing in regent level, you should be able to, at the least, stay equal to the ai in tech advances by doing your own research. you should even be able to pull ahead rather easily.

remember, the more cities you have, the commerce you have, which translates to money, fun and science. like everyone else said, build a lot of cities early on

staying eqaul in techs can also be done at monarchy level with your own research, with some difficulty. however, things get tricky at the emporer level. at this level, i abandon all hopes of doing my own research and rely on money and military prowess to persuade other civs to give me their knowledge, otherwise, i can't keep up. i would be interested to know if anyone on this forum pursues any research of their own at this level or higher, at least for the first half to three-quarters of the game?

seriously though, at the regent level, you should be able to keep up without relying on money and military strength. i would suggest you learn how to do it before you switch to the money method, it will give you more insight into the dynamics of the game, making you a better player.
 
Well, that sounds good in theory. 8)

I played the game of the month yesterday and submitted a Quick Start with timeline (though I don't know where to look for somebody's analysis). I expanded what I thought was sufficient, equal in territory to the AI's. I was even ahead in tech and money for the longest period of time.

As I neared 1000 BC though, the other AI's caught up. I had a single impi in each city and lost 3 of them to Japanese before I gave up. I was back to where I was before - falling behind in tech, running out of gold, and less defense than necessary. I'm going to play it again tonight.
 
Originally posted by ripcord_tx
Well, that sounds good in theory. 8)

I played the game of the month yesterday and submitted a Quick Start with timeline (though I don't know where to look for somebody's analysis). I expanded what I thought was sufficient, equal in territory to the AI's. I was even ahead in tech and money for the longest period of time.

As I neared 1000 BC though, the other AI's caught up. I had a single impi in each city and lost 3 of them to Japanese before I gave up. I was back to where I was before - falling behind in tech, running out of gold, and less defense than necessary. I'm going to play it again tonight.

In the beginning, try to find 2 good city sites that can produce a lot of food and decent shields without much tile improvements and send your first 2 settlers there. Have those 2 cities do nothing but pump out settlers. If placed carefully, you should be able to pump out settlers very quickly and out expand most AI in regent level. Somewhere along the line have another city or 2 (preferrably 2) to start building nothing but workers and everytime a worker is completed, do not just use "goto" command, use the "build-road-to" (ctrl+r) command to move it to a city in your empire. This way you will have 1-2 workers per city AND they are all connected to each other. Try as much as you can to get the Great Library wonder. There are many many threads around that tell ways to pre-build for Great Library and what to do with your tax rate and such. With this jump start, you should have the biggest empire and have plenty of commerce to afford high science rate (all that road helps a lot) to be able to stay competitive. Once you and the AI start warring each other, you will only pull further ahead and there's no looking back. :)

good luck :)
 
Originally posted by billindenver
Could you give me a link to your post? I'm not sure if I can be any help or not, but I'd like to see it anyway.

For my Quickstart entry? The instructions said to email it to quick_start@civfanatics.net. The instructions didn't say *why* I should do that. I thought maybe that email address belonged to cracker since he's the one that suggested it.

Anyway, I can attach it to this post. It contains a .sav file at 1000BC and a text timeline of my notes.
 
Ripcord,

Sorry I haven't gotten back with you on the QSC, it cam in fine but I have been tied up with a number of other issues including the hunt for the infamous "too good to be true" game.

I haven't yet completed my QSC round for GOTM12 but will get to that this weekend so that is another reason I have not been able to even open the files to give you any quick feedback. It takes until after the 15th of the month for any of the QSC games for the GOTMs to really start trickling in from the more experienced players. We are all a bit new to this process since we are still testing the scoring formula.
 
I don't understand why everyone is telling you to buy tech on regent. It is very easy to keep up with them if you are managing your empire correctly. Start buying techs on monarch which is where I play.
 
Having difficulty beating emperor or deity lvls?(or any lvl) Try this strategy.

First you gotta grab as much land as possible so u won't be lickely to be attacked and have enough cities to build a strong empire. Don't bother building spearmen in ur central cities, like those will be attacked right? just build warriors for civil disorder control.

Second and most important, RUSH FOR THE GREAT LIBRARY only go for advances that lead to Literacy and other important onces like Bronze working etc. When you've build the library drop your science rate to 0% boost ur luxeries to 50 and tax to 50 (or 40/60 30/70 whatever u please) Talk to all civs u know and get as much communications as u can get. This won't a problem with all the free sciences and lots of cash u got. Now ur the most advanced civ in the world don't get bothered by civil disorder and have mountains of cash. Use the cash to build improvements in your cities and build all improvements till ur out of improvements. Defend your border citties with some extra offensive units (swordmen knight). When ur great library is obsolete ur cities are almost all size 12 and all have universities and cathedrals. Boost ur sciences to the maximum posibble.

Regarding war.
U probably didn't captured any cities till now except the culture captured cities. AI will probably attack u if ur borders aren't defended strong enough, when this happends talk to every civ on the map and get a military alliance, this shouldn't be to hard with your cash and sciences, don't bother attacking the AI unless u got some spare units.
When ur great library is obsolete u should go for cavalries, when u have cavalries the time has come to take over the world. All your cities should be perfected by now and the opponents should have about the same literacy as u but with obsolete units because AI don't upgrade that much. First upgrade the units ur gonna use and defend ur central cities with just 1 infantry or riflemen or whatever ur most advanced defense is. Build massive numbers of cavalries and just trample over your enemies as an elephant stepping on a bug. Try using military aliances if this get's a bit too hard.

I haven't tried playing deity yet but this has to work as well on deity as it does on emperor. When I started waging war I hardly captured any ground but that went better when i got infantry and later on tanks. Then i was the most advanced civ in the world because the AI was in full war with me and I killed more units of theirs then they killed mine. When I got my modern tanks it was way too easy, 3 big civs left on the map and 1 small civ. The french, conquered in 2 turns. India, conquered in 1,5 turns. Aztec, conquered in 3 turns. Zulu, conquered in 0,5 turns.

I hope this tactic will work for you the people who can't beat higher lvls. These are just the global and most important features of my playing style, it is possible this tactic won't work for u because ur playing style doesn't match mine, but if ur a perfectionist like me this should work.

Happy asskickin ;) Squatter..
 
Exploring is not to be ignored as a source of techs.
In the ancient era the civs get ahead so quick because they get all the goody huts and then trade with each other. All the goody huts on a large map will get you into the middle ages without ever researching a tech yourself (and no more--goody huts only give ancient era techs).
 
Map size matters, You will need to adapt Your strat when You move to diffrent map size. My strat in particulary suited for tiny map (tiny takes east RT to play)
and I have found that going from tiny to std. equals 1 leve up.

In general agressive strats seem to gain from smaller map size.

It looks like Your economy is not working propely to make the $$ needed for science.
Also sci -rate of 40 % seems rather low.
What are Domestic Adv. figures when You start falling behind ?
 
Monarchy sucks for tech. I usually play huge maps, and on regent the easiest way for me to get ahead is to quickly expand, foregoing infrastructure. I send out a settler, have it build its own spearman, and by then it is usually ready to build a settler. If the settler will be done before the city reaches size 3, I will build either a temple, or library, depending on which is cheaper.. The civ you choose has alot to do with what you should do with your workers. If you are industrious, you can get away with fewer workers because they are twice as fast. I have enough workers that all of my cities are connected by roads within turns of their being founded, if the workers haven't gotten to the site before the settlers. Every road square that your population is working on gives you commerce, which means more science, add the bonus for republic, and you should be able to stay even. I usually play on pangeas, and go for the Great Library first, if I have 2 cities with a high production, I will go for the Pyramids too. To me, they aren't as important, but that is probably because I have always played any game with techs with the same strategy, I win through superior technology. Once my core cities get too far away from the borders, then I start building temples and libraries. Usually, through the first age I am a bit behind in tech, but the GL keeps me right behind the other civs. I keep my science set high, to make sure that I get republic as soon as possible, then go for the military tradition line. That way, when education is discovered, I will get it with the GL, and be a tech or 3 ahead in the other line. Depending on the situation, the other civs might be able to stay with you in tech until you get railroads. This is where the number of workers you have can make a huge difference. The shield bonus they give you will mean that no one will be able to challenge you for tech or production leads for the rest of the game.

As for your war problems, I have 2 suggestions. First, I trade my world map every 10 turns. you can do it more often, I just like the year breakdown, especially in the AD years. 50 AD, 150 AD, until it switches to 5 year turns, 1600 AD, 1650AD, until it switches to 2 year turns at 1750, ect, just an easy way for me to check how long it has been. The more you trade with someone, the better your relationships are. For the second suggestion, it sounds like you need more allies. Since most of my cities are defended by 1 defensive unit, best I have at the time (this is where spearmen are better than warriors, they upgrade all the way to mech infantry), I get 3 other civs to declare war on anyone that declares war on me. 2 civs on the borders of the one that declared war on me, to distract their forces, and 1 between us. If there isn't one between us, I pick somone on the other side of me, they will send their forces through my territory, and meet the aggressor head on if he managed to spare any forces to attack me with because of his other 2 front war.

With this strategy I am never that far behind in tech, I get most if not all the middle age wonders (especially with prebuilding a palace), and get to attack riflemen (at best) with tanks.

Other people have a completely different strategy, they find this one too boring, they find an early military approach works better for them. I have had some success with this too, but I prefer the peaceful scientific style better, you just have to learn the keys to doing it successfully, maximizing your commerce. Roads for the bonus, temples and cathedrals to keep your people happy and working, libraries for science boost, and market places for their bonuses to commerce. As for building wealth, usually I am getting techs fast enough I always have something to build until the fourth age, occassionally I will switch a city to wealth then, depending on the size of my tank/mech infantry forces.
 
Thanks for all the suggestions here - I want to announce my first victory on a Monarch setting last night.

I was Egyptian to the north, average starting location. Romans to the southeast and Persians to the southwest were my biggest trouble. I expanded east first, cutting off the Romans so I could settle the northern portion later. The Romans had 12 cities to my 8, and I shared a long mountainous border. And they were aggressive! They plopped cities down any place there was a free square.

I went for the Great Library - missed it my 1 turn. Also missed the Pyramids, so a lot of wasted shields there.

Zulu on the far south of Roman demanded a tech from me, I declined and the first war began. Apparently they neglected to get a right of passage from the Romans though; just as the Zulu arrived (it was a mountainous region, I let their impi commit suicide on my cities), the Romans declared war on them, wiping out the attacking Zulu.

I used a war chariot to finish off an impi and triggered my golden age, then I declared war against the #1 Romans since I knew their armies must be far south at Zululand. Persia apparently had the same idea, they declared war. A couple of Roman cities culture flipped to me. The Persians were much fast at this conquest though; with the Romans down to 3 cities, I barely beat the Persians to 1 of them. I then called the Romans and got another city for peace. Persians wiped out their final city next turn and took the #1 slot. There is a close race at the top 3 between me, Persians and Babylonians.

The Babylonians attack the Persians, and the Greek decide this is a good time to attack the Persians as well. I wait a few turns until I think the armies are weakened, then I get the Germans to attack the Babylonians with me. Babs and I are equal in tech and they have as many cavalry, so I made a tech beeline for infantry and gave up on calvary since their defense was so poor. I then pillaged the countryside, taking all their roads, mines, leaving only bare ground. I followed up with 30 artillery to pound the Babylonian cities to size 2 before I took it - if I didn't, it would flip back to them nearly right away. Once city flipped 5 times before I finally razed it and built a new one.

I made a grand sweep to take most of the eastern continent, wiped out the Babs and started on the Persians. At this point I found the benefits of Communism - most of my previous victories had been space race and Democracy worked well, but Communism let me stay at war for hundreds of years, and made my border cities productive. One of my border cities even flipped a German city by culture.

Luxuries are set at 0%, tech at 40%, and I'm only gaining 50 gold per turn, but nothing to spend it on since I pulled ahead in tech and territory. Tanks are online, and I'm making 5 new tanks a turn. I'm taking 3 cities every turn, and wipe out the Persians, then the Greeks, then the Germans. The Iroquois have a large island to the southwest and were never a factor.

Victory by Domination, 1896, Monarch setting, and without the Great Library. Easily doubled my previous high score. Thanks everybody. 8) A couple of more Monarch games and I'll move up to Emperor.
 
I just looked over this thread again and I know this is a late response but...

I love Squatter's optimism: "I haven't tried playing deity yet but this has to work as well on deity as it does on emperor." ... No, no, no there is a massive difference between Emperor and Diety, I wonder if he has found this out yet.

Playing on Diety and given the massive cost of 1st civ tech costs for the non AI civs, I have a hard time imagining a situation where one is even two techs ahead for more than a couple turns in a game (like just after ToE, or something). If anyone has some proof of a situation like this, I would be very interested.

Edit: well on second thought that was a bit of an overstatement. One can be ahead in techs if one is also well ahead in the game overall.
 
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