I hate god

[Stylesjl]

Wrong, again. It means that God is all-powerful and that God is all-knowing. Once again, this is God. God gave us free will to do what we want. God did not influence our free will in any way, except in the writing of the Scriptures, but that's a different story for another day.

God gave you the free will to question him, and you have decided to question his existence and his power. Do not expect him to be looking kindly upon you when Humanity is done, but you made the choice to not have faith in his existence.

Again, God does not choose to interfere in our free will. He gave us the free grace of free will and the ability to use it. So, this analogy holds true still.

I give up. This argument has involved me metaphorically smashing my head against a brick wall at full force repeatedly

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

And finally, if you pick the wrong god(s) then you are in trouble

The problem lies not with picking the wrong God, but with picking the wrong way of worshipping Him, for there is only one God. Unless of course you are sacrificing to Jupiter or a pantheon of Gods, in which case I can only offer my condolences, and possibly ten head of cattle.

 

[Prince_Imrahil]

How do you know there is only one god? what makes christianity more valid then polytheism?

A sincere question, not flame-bait - since some people seem rather sensitive...

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

How do you know there is only one god? what makes christianity more valid then polytheism?

A sincere question, not flame-bait - since some people seem rather sensitive...

Not Christianity, all the major religions today. Think about it: Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and Hinduism, all the major religions that acknowledge dieties (Bhuddism doesn't really have a God, and yes I know I spelled that wrong ) all acknowledge one single diety. Islam even goes so far as to say that the god of Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, and Zoroaster are the same God. If we all worship one God, even though we have different names for Him, is it not at least possible to entertain the idea that, if we all believe there is only one God, that all our "one God"s are the same guy?

As a sidenote, Hinduism, while recognizing many 'gods,' believe the pantheon to be parts of Him, the sum of all of these gods is God with a capital G.

 

[GenMarshall]

First off, god might actually like atheists. Illogical as that sounds, it's not fallsifiable. So by beleiving in god you might be setting yourself up for hell!

I doubt that believing in God would send myself to hell . Especialy in his scriptures in the Judeo-Christian tradition state that the unbelievers are to end up in hell, not believers themselves. Its not what I say, but what is in the scriptures that I read.

Second of all. Pascals Wager relies on a lie. Converting to a religion wouldn't work for me or Curt because we simply don't beleive. Any attempt to pretend we beleived based on the wager would simply be a lie. And from what I hear god doesn't like being lied to

However, what separates you and Curt from myself is that I actually truly believe in God.

 

[Sahkuhnder]

...all the major religions that acknowledge dieties (Bhuddism doesn't really have a God, and yes I know I spelled that wrong ) all acknowledge one single diety. Islam even goes so far as to say that the god of Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, and Zoroaster are the same God. If we all worship one God, even though we have different names for Him, is it not at least possible to entertain the idea that, if we all believe there is only one God, that all our "one God"s are the same guy?

As a sidenote, Hinduism, while recognizing many 'gods,' believe the pantheon to be parts of Him, the sum of all of these gods is God with a capital G.

How much does the prevailing opinion of "the major religions of today" really matter? Frankly, so what? The major religions of the past didn't have a problem with the earth being flat or with god living on a mountaintop or in the sky. When searching for the answer to a fact-based question, especially an essentially unanswerable one like is it god or gods, opinions without factual or logical basis are of no value.

It's still just the opinion of people who really don't know and don't have any more data on which to base their guess than anyone else does, in this case the amount of real data is zero. A large number of people guessing without data is still in the end just a wild and valueless guess.

 

[Prince_Imrahil]

However, what separates you and Curt from myself is that I actually truly believe in God.

So why bother to bring up pascal's ignorant wager at all?

Just wondering.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

How much does the prevailing opinion of "the major religions of today" really matter? Frankly, so what? The major religions of the past didn't have a problem with the earth being flat or with god living on a mountaintop or in the sky. When searching for the answer to a fact-based question, especially an essentially unanswerable one like is it god or gods, opinions without factual or logical basis are of no value.

It's still just the opinion of people who really don't know and don't have any more data on which to base their guess than anyone else does, in this case the amount of real data is zero. A large number of people guessing without data is still in the end just a wild and valueless guess.

Well to be frank, there is no "factual basis" for believing in God or religion. I realize that, and, if I wasn't 100% sure he existed, I'd be an atheist right now, because I see that overwhelming lack of evidence that is against me. However, note that lack of evidence for one side is not necessarily evidence in favor of the other side.

 

[GenMarshall]

So why bother to bring up pascal's ignorant wager at all?

Just wondering.

I still have a shakey beliefs in God. Especially converting from Agnosticism into Roman Catholicism.

 

[Prince_Imrahil]

This

I still have a shakey beliefs in God. Especially converting from Agnosticism into Roman Catholicism.

seems to contradict


this...

However, what separates you and Curt from myself is that I actually truly believe in God.

doesn't make sense in the way you put it... the difference for you in relying on pascal's lie is that you truly believe, yet you rely on pascals lie because your dont really truly know what you believe?

 

[Sahkuhnder]

...note that lack of evidence for one side is not necessarily evidence in favor of the other side.

Which is also why I don't believe in the Easter Bunny or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, a simple lack of evidence. Call me picky, but I would actually like some facts or at least some supporting data from a trusted source before I blindly believe something. And remember, belief in god is no small matter.

If you want me to believe you're in Southern Maryland my requirements are low and I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and take you at your word. If you want me to believe in an all-powerful perfect being, that this being has existed forever and made the entire universe from nothing in a week, that there's an afterlife of heaven, etc., etc., and because of that I must let someone else decide for me what's moral, how I should live my life, what I should do with my Sunday morning, where a good chuck of my money should be donated, etc., etc., I'm going to have a lot higher requirements before I blindly believe and surrender much of my sovereignty and free will in order to join your club.

I'm just not willing to kneel and worship anything that nobody can provide even the slightest actual factual basis of the very existence of, let alone why I should, or why I would be asked to, blindly believe in.

 

[GenMarshall]

This seems to contradict

doesn't make sense in the way you put it... the difference for you in relying on pascal's lie is that you truly believe, yet you rely on pascals lie because your dont really truly know what you believe?

I don't see any contradictions. I have my days where I believe God the strongest and some days I believe in God the weakest. Plus, I don't see it as pascal's lie, I see it as an assurance that I know that if something does happen, that I would not be punished in eternity in hell whenever I have my low days where I don't believe in God that strongly. I fear hell and I don't want to end up there.

 

[Prince_Imrahil]

I don't see any contradictions. I have my days where I believe God the strongest and some days I believe in God the weakest. Plus, I don't see it as pascal's lie, I see it as an assurance that I know that if something does happen, that I would not be punished in eternity in hell whenever I have my low days where I don't believe in God that strongly. I fear hell and I don't want to end up there.

And how does that not contradict the statement that you made saying what seperates you is that you truly believe in god? What difference does that make you from an atheist who says, you know what, pascals wager is a safe bet?

 

[Perfection]

Well, I figure if god does exist and this can somehow be proven to me, I'm not going to have a clue what he really wants (because God is infinite in ability to trick folks), so I suppose I'd just be confused and unsure.

 

[GenMarshall]

And how does that not contradict the statement that you made saying what seperates you is that you truly believe in god?

*Sigh* You just dont get it! I have some days that I have a strong belief in God and some days that I have a weak belief in God. Its that so hard to understand? I may have a strong belief in God but its built on a weak foundation and any such influences that show that "God does not exist" would send that foundation tumbling down along with the belief in God. *Sigh* Some people just dont undestand what it is like going through high days and low days .

What difference does that make you from an atheist who says, you know what, pascals wager is a safe bet?

Because I know and have hope that God does exist. Why I see pascals wager as a safe bet is because I do not want to suffer the torments of hell if ever I die on my low days. It gives me reassurance that if I still hold onto hope in my low days and if I die, I would not suffer the eternal torture of hell.

*Sigh* I guess some people dont understand what it is like going through a crisis in faith .

 

[Prince_Imrahil]

Because I know and have hope that God does exist. Why I see pascals wager as a safe bet is because I do not want to suffer the torments of hell if ever I die on my low days. It gives me reassurance that if I still hold onto hope in my low days and if I die, I would not suffer the eternal torture of hell.

*Sigh* I guess some people dont understand what it is like going through a crisis in faith

You don't have to have hope if you know, and honestly, you can't really know that god exists anyway.... though of course others will say that I can't really know that one can't know god, but, moving on...

See, if you really truly believed in god I don't see why you'd even give pascals wager a thought, because that means you're questioning your beliefs (which is always a good thing!) but hasn't found an answer to them yet, so your claim to truly believe in god is rather weak if it can have high days and low days.

In other words, like Curt would be if he settled for pascals wager (in some twisted universe) accepting pascals wager as a safe bet is accepting that you're content to live a lie, with the possibility that it might not just be a lie!

 

[GenMarshall]

because that means you're questioning your beliefs (which is always a good thing!) but hasn't found an answer to them yet

I am just afraid that in the process that I would fall away from God

so your claim to truly believe in god is rather weak if it can have high days and low days.

I still strive to have a truly strong belief in God. I dont see my claim as believing in God is weak because deep in my heart, I truly believe in God. Its my mind and brain that is more or so weak due because of my condition (Which I doubt you heard about). Pascal's wager is mainly a crutch for the belief in God in my Bi-polar brain, in my heart I truly believe in God.

 

[Prince_Imrahil]

I haven't heard about it but still your mind is logic and reason and usually makes 'sense' out of what you feel in your 'heart'.... so if its logical and reasonable and makes sense to you that falling away from your idea of god is what you should do, don't look at that as some kind bi-polar battle going on, because its not, its up to you to decide which one you 'truly' believe as the fact of the matter.

 

[GenMarshall]

So if its logical and reasonable and makes sense to you that falling away from your idea of god is what you should do

Its illogical and unreasonable to fathom the idea that I am falling away from God. I just cant bear myself the idea without a God. When I was an agnostic, I used to be very depressed. Since I have found God, my depression has reduced. Falling away from God is not something I should do because I still believe in him and want to strive to have a stronger belief in him.

 

[Prince_Imrahil]

Civgeneral, you don't seem to get what I'm saying... you can't bear the idea, yet you entertain the idea, you truly believe, yet you're unsure, you have strong days, you have weak days, the point I'm trying to make is, is that pascals wager is for you the same as it would be for a non-believer; like you said, that crutch and lie because you're not sure of it's opposite...

the fact that either there is or isn't a god. And sure, you can say we can't know for sure either way, but to entertain pascals wager is to embrace agnosticism and lie to yourself instead of just shrugging it off and saying who cares anyways.