I lost a Tech game on King /w 8 settled academies and 25+ RA's. Help!

[Zephram]

Hey all, I'd very much appreciate some advice. I've read this forum for years and I used to be a Civ4 player who took their game "across the hump" so to speak from playing the normal difficulties to moving to where the AI cheats and is given gross advantages. I felt like my game improved massively from exploring the ideas found here, ty.

I'm at that place again, with Civ5. Its pretty frustrating actually because I feel like the difficulty curve is broken where Prince is stupid easy and King is ridiculously hard. The game isn't balanced properly and has design issues, but thats another topic.

I lost last night, and here is what happened:

I played King on Standard size with high seas, 8 civs, 8 city states. It turns out I was alone on a small-ish island. I rushed to NC before expanding and generally stayed pretty small as an empire. I had to make 5 cities to take over my whole island which I did slowly as happiness permitted. I had 4/5 policy trees completed at the end of the game. My capital was science focussed, worked specialists in science, had 8 settled academies at the end of the game, approx 300 science from this one town, 600-ish/turn total. *I sold luxuries and spare resources and used the money to buy research agreements*, which I must have signed at least 25-30.

I sometimes go Nukes when I have strong tech, so I can sabotage any potential competitors if I need to. No uranium. No city states had any either. So, no way to slow down competitors.

Darius pulled out a space victory and beat me. I know turtling and being passive is not the best strat, but I was alone and free to focus on growth. No one declared any wars on me, I wasted almost no production on military. I would say I went crazy with science as a focus ever since the start of the game, and yet, I still lost to a AI science victory.

I know there is no screenshot game state, and there are many other things which can affect the outcome of the game, but I'd really appreciate some advice. I feel like I can't win and its starting to be pretty not-fun. Going peaceful with science fails. Culture is boring because you can't settle cities. Rushing early can get you some land but unless you take over their whole empire, usually it just leaves you in a gimped state where competitors blow past you in other ways.

Ideas? What can I do to make the game fun again? I need to get my skill level in a place where I can almost always win King if I play a solid game. Right now it just feels like the AI is quite poor and cheats heavily to create the illusion of smartness (lame). When you lose to it, it feels like you foolishly thought your bank account would accrue more interest than Warren Buffet's, and when you realize there is no chance of that happening, and that it was an impossible challenge to begin with, you wonder why you ever thought you could win in the first place.

Any tips or comments greatly appreciated. I'm hoping there are some viable strategies that don't require a meticulous very early tech/unit rush on a close-by neighbor, domination victory.

 

[Catan_Settler]

You really haven't given us much to go on here, but it sounds like you are not generating nearly enough science. You should be over 1000 beakers per turn by the end game, hell I have broken 2000 with a wide empire using Maya. Other than, no clue what the problem is. I also disagree with you that King is so difficult. The AI has minor *minor* advantages, but will now occasionally attack you. Yes that's different from Prince where they are basically just sitting there waiting for you to win and leaving you alone to do as you please, but it's not really much different other than the likelihood of an AI attacking you.

Anyways, I'd say counting academies is not really useful, what I'm wondering if how you;d only be getting 300 from that city. 8 academies would be 12 beakers each at the end game which makes for 96 beakers right there, before multipliers. YOur capital by the end game would be at +150% or +200% beakers from all the other buildings by then so... pretty much where is the rest of your science? Cause 8 academies at 200% (this assumes you have both an observatory and national college) would basically be all 300 beakers. Where are your science specialists and population numbers at?

Well, that's what I could glean as advice from your post.

 

[Unresolved]

This is for G&K, right? Could you post some screenshots? That would help a lot, especially if it's at turn 100 or so.

What I saw from your post, your research is wayyyyy too low. It sounds like your satellite cities weren't producing enough science. Also, you planted too many GS. Ideally, you plant GS until Scientific Theory and then save GS afterwards. 8 turns after Plastics, you could start bulbing those GS. RA's on King difficulty are largely not worth it since the AI's bpt is too low. I would maybe just do one RA wave right after Education.

You don't need to take over one or two AI capitals, but it will help a lot. Then you can annex those capitals and your science will skyrocket mid-game.

 

[JothHago]

I'm just curious. What speed are you playing on? How can you sign 25-30 RAs?
Just doing some quick maths, even by god chance you can sign research agreement on a standard sized map with 5 other civ's, with each RA taking 30 turns, you'll need at least 5 consecutive waves of RA after Education, which usually is retrieved @ T120-150. That's nearly unheard of.

Without proper save files or screen shots, we really don't know what situation you're in. At what turn did Darius got his space ship off?

AI @ King is not anyway close to cheating. If anything I'd say they'll be @ parity most of the time.

A little more info, such as your beakers per turn count (science), levels @ T100, T150 will give us a good indication what stage of game you're in.

Are your cities growing? What's your population count @ T100/T150. Do you have enough production? Religion is good but not really an important entity at this stage.

What civilization were you playing?

 

[Zephram]

Cause 8 academies at 200% (this assumes you have both an observatory and national college) would basically be all 300 beakers. Where are your science specialists and population numbers at?

I'll have to post SS I guess. I didn't have observatory, city was not by a mountain (thats required isn't it? Can't remember).

This is for G&K, right?

No, no mods or expansions, Civ5 played through Steam.

What I saw from your post, your research is wayyyyy too low. It sounds like your satellite cities weren't producing enough science. Also, you planted too many GS. Ideally, you plant GS until Scientific Theory and then save GS afterwards. 8 turns after Plastics, you could start bulbing those GS. RA's on King difficulty are largely not worth it since the AI's bpt is too low. I would maybe just do one RA wave right after Education.

Interesting feedback, I usually don't use GS that way, I was seriously trying to focus science and I think I was doing great, even if it sounds like I sucked. I'll post some screens later.

 

[Browd]

Did you do RAs with Darius? If he was your tech rival, it is a bad idea to do RAs with him, since he will get more out of the RAs than you will (particularly with your tech rate). Also, how big did your cities get?

 

[Zednaught]

Afaik, the AI bonuses on King are pretty insignificant. The difficulty description makes them seem more imposing than they actually are, so very little cheating on that difficulty (and if it bothers you, I'm trying out Brave New World now and I think they've nerfed the AI's gold bonuses). A lot of Civ is kind of like a game of golf, in that you're really competing against yourself to make the best decisions.

What turn did you lose on? A turn 300ish win should be entirely within your reach, and I've never seen the AI get close to a tech victory at king by that time.

I gotta say that I'm skeptical about the 25-30 RA agreement thing.

In general, you'll want large populations in your cities, and make sure that you each has a library, university, and public schools. Research labs help pump out extra tech if needed in the end game, although I like to save great scientists and buy them with faith (easier to do in G&K).

Tradition helps to boost your population, and rationalism is of course great for science. The Patronage tree has a decent bonus, and of course there are various wonders that can help. One thing I like to do is build the leaning tower for a free engineer, and then use it to rush buy the Porcelain tower. Freedom can help if you're running a lot of specialists-perhaps you hurt your growth that way?

 

[Resipsa]

I'll have to post SS I guess. I didn't have observatory, city was not by a mountain (thats required isn't it? Can't remember).



No, no mods or expansions, Civ5 played through Steam.



Interesting feedback, I usually don't use GS that way, I was seriously trying to focus science and I think I was doing great, even if it sounds like I sucked. I'll post some screens later.

Thats the most efficient use of GS to save at scientific theory and bulb at 8 turns after your research facilities have finished.

 

[Deau]

600 bpt with 5 cities on a science game, including 8 settled GS is way off the charts (below). I'm afraid you either are not selective enough of your city locations in the early game or just don't grow them enough by either

not using farms enough (TP spam, even with the 2nd policy in rationalism, is worse than farms for until quite late in the game). Or set focus on production too early in the game/when not necessary.

Also, you should systematically build granaries and aqueducts asap in cites (esp new cities). Obviously not if you plan to complete tradition shortly.

As someone mentioned, you should aim at roughly 1k bpt in the late game for science at lower levels which is achieveable with roughly cities 20+ for capital and satellite cities averaging somewhere between 12-15 pop, give or take. More never hurts. Less truly does. I peaked at around 1150 BPT in an OCC science (as korea though) on king difficulty for a different thread on this forum.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Zephram, you should have put 'vanilla' tag in the title to avoid confusion. All the replies here refer to G&K only, which is a very different game in terms of turtling.

It turns out I was alone on a small-ish island.

Problem #1. Isolated start requires rushing naval techs to meet trading and RA partners asap. Not sure if you did that.

I rushed to NC before expanding and generally stayed pretty small as an empire.

Problem #2. You should go Liberty and at least 2 cities NC, better 4 cities NC.

take over my whole island which I did slowly

Problem #3. You need to settle all your core cities asap.

I had 4/5 policy trees completed at the end of the game

Problem #4. You don't need so much culture, investment should be placed in other areas.

8 settled academies at the end of the game, approx 300 science from this one town, 600-ish/turn total.

Problem #5. Don't plant academies. The only exception is the first Babylon GS (always beeline Writing as Babylon and plant the guy). All the rest should be saved for the end and bulbed.

8 city states.

Didn't help either. Less CS = less goodies for you.

Vanilla science victory is all about smart RA management and keeping the median as high as possible all the time. King difficulty doesn't make things easier. AI has very little cash for RA's, you have to pay for its share too. Therefore if you have the option to have a biggish rather than smallish empire, go with the former. Bigger empire = higher cash flow = more and earlier RA's.

Not as self promotion, but read this thread and you'll find the answer to most of your questions. Feel free to ask if you have more. Good luck!

 

[chukownu]

nvm..

 

[Streams]

In Vanilla, a Great Scientist granted a Free Tech, so just taking the most expensive techs at the end might be a tad better due to costs.