I managed to break a 400 PPT barrier on space projects

[Victoria]

I always thought IZ were worth.

When the fastest timed science games include them, then I will look again.
The question is how much production does it take to make something that makes more production and what is the value of using that earlier production for something more useful.
I can get sub 200 SV’s fairly regularly and my cities rarely have more than 60 production. I do not rely on those 60 production cities to get me there faster because 7 charge workers are far faster.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

When the fastest timed science games include them, then I will look again.
The question is how much production does it take to make something that makes more production and what is the value of using that earlier production for something more useful.
I can get sub 200 SV’s fairly regularly and my cities rarely have more than 60 production. I do not rely on those 60 production cities to get me there faster because 7 charge workers are far faster.

The fact that the fastest science games (an incredibly low sample size!) don't have IZ is pretty meaningless in and of itself. It is more telling about individual player's style and preferences than it is about optimal play. Most of them likely don't feature founding a religion, or late-game pillage wars (I assume), but those things can definitely speed up a SV regardless. They're just not very common occurances, doesn't mean they aren't viable.

Realistically, if you have really high BPT you can skip some Eurekahs without crippling yourself, in fact it could probably speed up your game. In these games it seems like building IZs is not really worth it, since you will not be getting much out of the Eurekahs anyways.

In a game where there is 0 or 1 scientific CS and your BPT is generally bad while your CPT or GPT is strong, suddenly not only is skipping Eurekahs much worse, but also the Eurekah is worth more in and of itself, because getting the Eurekah will actually speed up tech progression (as opposed to high BPT games where you have to delay techs to get Eurekahs, which is counterintuitive).

That is why I rarely make generalist statements. Yes, some games you don't get IZs. In others you don't get HS, in yet others you get few TS. None of that is a plausible argument for not building IZ in general, and for skipping essentially 3 Eurekahs, which is a big deal. I'm convinced that one could reach optimal win times even with building IZ.

What's the fastest science game currently, like 170 on standard settings and 160 on any settings? I already came pretty close to that just playing my "suboptimal" strat of 4 IZ with mausoleum and angkor (wonders that most players would skip for "optimal/fast" games), if I find a good map in the future I will try just how fast I can win (HOF rules) with 3 or 4 IZ

some of my thoughts regarding IZ:

IZ are almost bad by design. Districts and district buildings are so good because they give you lots of global yields. Science, Culture, Gold and Faith are ALL global yields. A satellite city which is useless for central production can contribute to your global research, or can make you rushbuy buildings/workers via gold and faith. Production and food however only count for the specific city they are in. Local yields are always less useful in game where you have 20+ cities. That is one reason why IZs are bad compared to buildings with global yields. The only global yield of IZs are GE points.

IZs are also bad because the buildings are horrible. Workshops are imho not even worth building and I only get them because they are a Eurekah/requirement for Factories. Even factories are not that great currently. However, production in your spaceport cities is very valuable, because it has lots of modifiers for space projects. And production is not easy to come by outside of TR with allies.

Lastly, IZs are bad because building production is often not what you want to do. Especially in fast games. The longer the games, the more you get out of your built production. But the problem with building IZs is that building/buying workers usually gives you more hammers. And other districts, again, provide global yields. Global yields are very hard to come by via tile improvements, but hammers and food are not.

Still, with all this being said, building Workshops is good just for the Eurekah. In some games shaving 3 turns off of Indu means shaving 3 turns off of your win. Which is very significant. Of course, opportunity cost is a thing, but IZs are frequently heavily discounted in my games.

 

[Victoria]

It is more telling about individual player's style and preferences than it is about optimal play.

I disagree.
My statement was about using production monster cities for an SV which will by the way work fast if you have say 30 cities. And there is nothing wrong with getting 3 workshops for the eureka, after all some power stations are needed regardless of that IZ eureka. It is the power that is needed to optimise the research labs and power lasers, not the production. That is what I am saying and this become clearer as you reduce your cities.

I often play with 10 cities and it is a struggle to fit all the builds I need into the time and getting 1k science to brute force your way is an option but not easy with less cities while getting that culture near Cold War for the moon chop becomes more necessary. SV’s are a balancing act that becomes less necessary with more cities.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I disagree.
My statement was about using production monster cities for an SV which will by the way work fast if you have say 30 cities. And there is nothing wrong with getting 3 workshops for the eureka, after all some power stations are needed regardless of that IZ eureka. It is the power that is needed to optimise the research labs and power lasers, not the production. That is what I am saying and this become clearer as you reduce your cities.

I often play with 10 cities and it is a struggle to fit all the builds I need into the time and getting 1k science to brute force your way is an option but not easy with less cities while getting that culture near Cold War for the moon chop becomes more necessary. SV’s are a balancing act that becomes less necessary with more cities.

Sure, if I understand your argument correctly, you say that when # of cities increases, specializing a single city is much less opportunity cost. Which I agree with. If you only have 10 cities, you will be crippling yourself very hard building 4 IZ. You will also reduce your global science/culture much more, since you're missing a Campus in 6/10 cities, as opposed to 26/30.

I think we both view SV in a very similiar way. In the end, fast victories are all about bottlenecks. Most of the time your main bottleneck will be peak science. Peak science is limited by a bunch of factors, but most significant # of cities. Sometimes your bottleneck is culture, because getting 1st govt/feudalism/2nd gov/democracy early is key to a fast victory. Very rarely your bottleneck is centralized production, because we now have the Royal Society and builders can take care of centralized production now. Meaning it is much less important than science.

The most telling factor for a fast SV is usually how fast you get all cities online, how fast you get Rocketry, and how fast you get Democracy. Whether you have a 90 production capital or a 400 production capital in the lategame is not very impactful on finishing time, because the projects can just be rushed with builders and your laser stations mostly come from chops, not hard production.

It is the power that is needed to optimise the research labs and power lasers, not the production. That is what I am saying and this become clearer as you reduce your cities.

Interesting, I actually never do that. I always get my power from T4 government plus flipping all my tile improvements to power. I have a hard time getting more than a Campus and a Harbor in my chop-city, definitely need to try that!

 

[Victoria]

I have a hard time getting more than a Campus and a Harbor in my chop-city, definitely need to try that!

Setller City, Pyramid City, CH city, Chop city... yeah I try and settle a chop city about 4th or 5th. Having a seaport or a Military to get the 15% means you have more chop for lasers later.

Most of the time your main bottleneck will be peak science

Or as you say Cuilture.. or faith/gold

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Setller City, Pyramid City, CH city, Chop city... yeah I try and settle a chop city about 4th or 5th. Having a seaport or a Military to get the 15% means you have more chop for lasers later.

Ah, so this is where I go wrong. My chop city is usually among the tenth or twentieth city. And I rarely improve all their tiles either. Probably a mistake.

Or as you say Cuilture.. or faith/gold

True, I did not even consider gold/faith for Spaceport. Though for me that is almost never the problem, since my economy is stronger than avg (I build a lot more CH and Harbors than most people do). OTOH my Spaceports come usually between T140-160, if they came earlier, like around T120-140 getting that gold/faith would be much harder. That is definitely also one bottleneck for fast SV, though I would argue still less hard to come by than the Science and Culture ones.

Another bottleneck I forgot about is governor promotions. Though this is essentially tied to culture and if you get fast democracy you pretty much always get Moskah/Reyna 4 in time. I definitely have missed that promo once and it cost me 10 turns of my finishing time!