I miss spies

[Nightshades]

Anyone who've played Civilization 2 or CivRev knows about this unit.
Spies (or Diplomats - the first/early version) are units you use for theft or sabotage on an unknowing civ - such as an ally. Using the spy, you can steal gold, sabotage a production, destroy fortifications, etc. But there's always a risk that the spy gets caught - which will damage your reputation.

I'm just wondering - why didn't the spy unit survive in the Civ series? Why is there no spy in Civ 4 or 5? I really miss them.

 

[Lord Chambers]

There are spies in Civ4, with the BTS expansion.

The implementation of spies/diplomats in all versions of Civ have been pretty daft, alternating between an exploit-level of effectiveness and pointless diversion in others. Some people enjoy diversions from core gameplay, but I think it's pore design when one unit is the executor of all espionage elements, and those elements are broken. It's like having one-dimensional or cliched characters in an action movie. They don't ruin the film if you have the right mindset, but anyone who has thought about making one questions why the designer did such a half-assed job. I'm happy there is no espionage in Civ5.

If you'd like, I can get more specific as to how espionage has been broken in each Civ game.

 

[BjoernLars]

Go on Lord Chambers...

 

[buchengshi]

There are spies in Civ4, with the BTS expansion.

There are spies in vanilla Civ4.

 

[jtb1127]

Even if spies are not extremely useful in civilization 4, I still find them to be entertaining diversions that can help me seriously strategize. To me, spies are just another thing that the developers left out of civ v because they were to lazy to improve it.

 

[Hormagaunt]

Spies exist in Civ4 and are a lot of use. I, also, really miss them in Civ5. They should be reintroduced.

Possible uses for Civ5 spies:

1) Steal tech.
2) Steal map.
3) Sabotage of buildings / happiness / production.
4) Destroying relationships between two other civs or civ and city state.
5) Stealing Great People. Kidnapping them, if you will, to work for you.
6) Bribing units to join your civ.
7) Bribing cities to join your civ.

Some of these abilities were in earlier versions of the game, obviously.

 

[Goatimus]

Spies exist in Civ4 and are a lot of use. I, also, really miss them in Civ5. They should be reintroduced.

Possible uses for Civ5 spies:

1) Steal tech.
2) Steal map.
3) Sabotage of buildings / happiness / production.
4) Destroying relationships between two other civs or civ and city state.
5) Stealing Great People. Kidnapping them, if you will, to work for you.
6) Bribing units to join your civ.
7) Bribing cities to join your civ.

Some of these abilities were in earlier versions of the game, obviously.

Option 5 ( kidnapping Great people) would be so much fun!!

 

[Roxlimn]

I miss espionage, but I don't miss spies. Spies added what was usually a broken element to the Civ game, whenever they were highlighted. If the AI used them to equivalent effect, there was usually a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I liked the passive espionage in Civ 4. That I miss, but not overmuch.

 

[AbbieRevo]

I miss them too.

I'm hoping they add them in in the first real expansion.

Obviously there needs to be some balance. Even if it was just an invisible (except to other spies) scout that could go into closed borders it would be wonderful.

 

[SemperFi2382]

I miss them too.

I'm hoping they add them in in the first real expansion.

Obviously there needs to be some balance. Even if it was just an invisible (except to other spies) scout that could go into closed borders it would be wonderful.

I'd love to see the Scout upgrade into a Spy. Even if all they did was drop the ability to attack (but still defend) to gain an ability to scout within an enemy civs borders, which is about as basic as spying gets.

 

[headcase]

I liked the passive information in Civ4 that you could only gain by having a good enough spy rating with another civ. It should be that if two civs are both investing a decent amount into each other, they should be able to see each other's city populations and what tiles they're working on. Then one can get into more important information (what they're building, what tech they're working on) and actual espionage if they invest significantly more.

Done correctly, they can be another thing to balance in your civ; too much and they can't get enough done to justify the expense. Too little against a spy-happy neighbour and you'll have a constant nuisance on your hands.

Option 5 ( kidnapping Great people) would be so much fun!!

It would be amusing to see the best players find a way to reliably steal GSs and reach Alpha Centurai before turn 100.

 

[Becephalus]

I don't miss espionage or spies, and don't really feel that the game need more resources/mechanics. The ones it has are fine and present a complicated enough environment that still isn't adequately balanced.

On top of that espionage has never really been that important and doesn't really deserve representation on a game of this scale.

 

[AbbieRevo]

I don't miss espionage or spies, and don't really feel that the game need more resources/mechanics. The ones it has are fine and present a complicated enough environment that still isn't adequately balanced.

On top of that espionage has never really been that important and doesn't really deserve representation on a game of this scale.

Sorry to be that guy, but you have to be kidding me.

Intelligence operations have had a huge impact on a variety of wars, from the American Revolution, up through today's MilOps in Iraq and Afganistan.

Just look at WWII. The history of America for the past 100 years could be described as a series of intelligence operations, especially the parts they don't teach in school.

 

[erhaminus]

I don't. Until there would be EFFECTIVE counter-espionage (to defend myself).

 

[Camikaze]

I don't particularly miss spies. The BtS system might've been better (I never played BtS), but at least vanilla Civ4's espionage system wasn't anything to write home about. It was quite silly. Some sort of espionage system might have some sort of place in the game (I have very vague memories of playing Civ2 many years ago, and spies are one of the things I actually remember, because they were fun!), but it'd have to be much improved on previous iterations I reckon.

 

[Deggial]

Nightshades, maybe you might be interested in this thread, where I tried to develope a meaningful but not overpowered espionage system.

While I liked my ideas, there was less reaction than I hoped for. (Maybe, the civfanatics are simply to polite to say it's rubbish, maybe it was an overkill of text...)

 

[Ankh]

Sorry to be that guy, but you have to be kidding me.

Intelligence operations have had a huge impact on a variety of wars, from the American Revolution, up through today's MilOps in Iraq and Afganistan.

Just look at WWII. The history of America for the past 100 years could be described as a series of intelligence operations, especially the parts they don't teach in school.

Sorry but I think Becephalus is spot on that espionage has never really been that important and doesn't really deserve representation on a game of this scale. Intelligence operations, pale in comparison what the wheel or steam power did to mankind? Or the achievement to build the great walls of china or the pyramids. That's what civ is all about in my opinion not to run around with my ninja/agent/James bond sabotaging stuff.

I could maybe be fine with a simple global espionage mechanism but I think it's better just to leave it out.

 

[Becephalus]

Sorry to be that guy, but you have to be kidding me.

Intelligence operations have had a huge impact on a variety of wars, from the American Revolution, up through today's MilOps in Iraq and Afganistan.

Just look at WWII. The history of America for the past 100 years could be described as a series of intelligence operations, especially the parts they don't teach in school.

What do you even mean by this? ON the scale of the game some of the most successful espionage missions ever might cause 1 unit to not move 1 turn, or change your relation with a CS some (which is mostly covered by the current bribe system), or maybe do 1 damage to 1 unit.

Espionage missions simply are not important on these scales. ON human scales yes they can be hugely important, but we are not talking about human scales.

 

[AbbieRevo]

Sorry but I think Becephalus is spot on that espionage has never really been that important and doesn't really deserve representation on a game of this scale. Intelligence operations, pale in comparison what the wheel or steam power did to mankind? Or the achievement to build the great walls of china or the pyramids. That's what civ is all about in my opinion not to run around with my ninja/agent/James bond sabotaging stuff.

I could maybe be fine with a simple global espionage mechanism but I think it's better just to leave it out.

If you want to model the acheivments that topple an empire you can't ignore espionage and statecraft. How many governments were taken down by the CIA? How much petrol does the US have access to because the Bush Clique decided to prop up the House of Saud in the 70's? These are major chapters in the history of the American Empire. Certainly as big in scale as the raising of an armoured division or corps, which Civ does see fit to model.

 

[cman2010]

I miss spys alot, they added so much to the game play, but what do you expect in this striped down version of civ.