I miss spies
- Thread starter Nightshades
- Start date
Yes I can, espionage doesn't define a civilization that stands for the test of time, territory and achievements does though.
Did CIA take down the roman empire?
Did CIA stop European colonization?
Did CIA prevent the pyramids to be built?
Did CIA institute the code of laws?
If you can please name me one governments of major importance that were "taken down" as you put it by CIA that has importance enough to matter in the grand scope of civilization please do.
Petrol is a drop in the ocean when the civilization game spans over 6000 years, House of Saud what? Does not matter on the scale civilization is at. Should we include random European line of royalty or random Chinese dynasty as well?
Sorry but civilization is not a game of American history.
True, but can't we just have a global mechanism that gives me sight of the territory in question instead? We have the scout to explore the world why do I need a spy to move around every turn looking what my enemies are up to? When a scout with open borders does that perfectly fine.
Tacgnol
Warlord
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2008
- Messages
- 216
You act as if all civ is about is grand scheme things when you have to manually control workers that build every mine, farm and pasture in your empire, and every battle your nation fights throughout time. Granted diplomacy in civ 5 isn't much but espionage is a huge part of diplomacy, at least in modern times. I agree that it was out of hand in some previous civ versions, for example having one spy steal revolutionary technology is excessive, but at the very, very least being able to see your opponent's territory without them knowing belongs in the game, especially with civ 5's focus on tactical combat.
I'm sorry but you can't act as if every single thing to be included in the game must be as monumental as the invention of the wheel or the fall of Rome when you manage every volley your archers fire in battle. Spying on other nations has been a whole lot more relevant to history than building a road between two cities on the edge of an empire...
Becephalus
King
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2005
- Messages
- 725
Both of these are modeled by giving money to CS's, and modeled rather well by it.
Having to sign open borders is not perfectly fine just to get this option. I hate OB and never allow it except in very rare occasions. (to avoid the highly annoying AI unit blocking, or settling areas that I cut off for myself) Besides, IMO, if the AI is willing to sign anything with you, then they're probably a less likely to need to be spied upon.
Plus, what about Civs that you can't agree on OB with who block your access to the next civ?
Having a unit that can creep about was pretty slick. Their ability to sabotage and stuff like that was just icing on the cake.
Satellites are no equal either as you can't see troop movement.
Panama, Nicauagra, Iran (succesful and attempted), Iraq, Cuba (attempted) to name a few of the more famous documented examples.
A good case could be made for their involvement in certain internal factional disputes and changes as well (Kennedy, Kennedy, MLK, Nixon).
But that's just the CIA, or OSS as it may be.
As for earlier examples, well if they did their job right no one ever knew.
Sun Tzu has quite a bit to say about military intelligence, and it's vital importance to succesful warfare as well.
Yes AI unit blocking, or sneak settling can be a mess. I never did like those ninja/agent units in civilization, they just felt out of place.
Spying at troop movement with satellites technology could properly be pretty cool and nicely implemented. To know were the AI stacks his nukes so you can preemptive attack.
True, but that would just be yet another simplification of mechanics over Civ 4. There was something fun about being sneaky with the chance of getting nabbed and all that.
Also satellites appear way too late in most games.
Sorry didn't mean it that way. What I'm trying to say is that for a feature to be implemented in civilization is must work with the grand scale of the game. For me running around with spies is beyond that scoop.
CIA infiltrating minor governments, or spies stopping troops or damaging random improvements in a city does not transition well to the scale civilization plays at. If we include spies running around, maybe we can include important regents running around, or small group of famous infantry units, somewhere the scoop just get to small and you have to say stop, Now were being to precise.
If you want to spy and do cool things and play the cold war game there's other of games out there that lets you do that. Civ to me: Is building a civilization from just a poor city with a worker into a flourishing empire.
A cold war could be a very cool scenario though.
I think many people want espionage in because spying makes us exited. Its dangerous it's gilded in novels and movies. There are great stories to tell. But for me its beyond the scoop the game plays at.
If espionage makes it into civ though I would like it to be on a more global scale with global settings and tied more to the diplomacy screen, and not with units.
Well, you do control generals, units and workers.. so controlling a spy isn't so out of place either really.
headcase
Limit 1 Facepalm Per Turn
I'd say spying (or "Intel gathering") is almost as important as exploring to a civilization once it starts encountering other ones, and goes back a tad before the CIA. Imagine an empire that doesn't know anything about the demographics\technology\assets of surrounding empires, but those empires know everything about them. Even without the sabotage part, that's a damn big disadvantage. And imagine not having open borders with them; they'd know exactly when to strike at you but you'd be clueless.
Example: there's no way to know what a competing city is building or what buildings it has unless you conquer it. How important is this information to you? Depending on your diplo, whether you plan war, or just to know where you are compared to them, you may or may not want want to invest significant
to know.
My vision is that if a spy is planted on a city, you can click on the city and see what's going on as if it's your own, but some stuff will be blocked with ??? depending on your espionage rating with the other civ. You increase espionage on a civ simply by "gifting" them gold anytime; 1 gold per esp.
I'd think this would be too complicated (seperate esp ratings between every pairing of civs), but Civ4 BTS did that and I felt it was manageable and fun to focus some civs over others. I didn't like the sliders so much though; I'd rather see gold "gifts".
Your effective esp with another civ would be the esp minus half of the esp they have with you. If you have 100 and they have 20, you have 90 on them and they have nothing on you. If you both have 300, you really both have 150 on each other. This way, if you're keeping balance with each other, then over the ages you'll have more and more information on each other, because in today's large populations it's much easier to blend in and find someone willing to co-operate.
So in summary:
- hammers to make spies
- gold to improve
against other civs, allowing spies to get more information.
- is effectively less when other civ puts into yours, but two civs who spend a lot on each other throughout the game will still have a lot of info on each other.
Example: there's no way to know what a competing city is building or what buildings it has unless you conquer it. How important is this information to you? Depending on your diplo, whether you plan war, or just to know where you are compared to them, you may or may not want want to invest significant
to know. My vision is that if a spy is planted on a city, you can click on the city and see what's going on as if it's your own, but some stuff will be blocked with ??? depending on your espionage rating with the other civ. You increase espionage on a civ simply by "gifting" them gold anytime; 1 gold per esp.
I'd think this would be too complicated (seperate esp ratings between every pairing of civs), but Civ4 BTS did that and I felt it was manageable and fun to focus some civs over others. I didn't like the sliders so much though; I'd rather see gold "gifts".
Your effective esp with another civ would be the esp minus half of the esp they have with you. If you have 100 and they have 20, you have 90 on them and they have nothing on you. If you both have 300, you really both have 150 on each other. This way, if you're keeping balance with each other, then over the ages you'll have more and more information on each other, because in today's large populations it's much easier to blend in and find someone willing to co-operate.
So in summary:
- hammers to make spies
- gold to improve
against other civs, allowing spies to get more information.-
is effectively less when other civ puts into yours, but two civs who spend a lot on each other throughout the game will still have a lot of info on each other.
Espionage sounds like a great feature, but it has never been done well in the history of the Civilization franchise. For that matter, I don't think I've ever seen espionage implemented well in any strategy game I've ever played. It's either totally unrealistic and ridiculously overpowered, or realistic and useless.
Or, in the case of Civ IV BTS, incredibly annoying. Do you miss having your cities constantly poisoned and production interrupted, with no direct way to prevent it (even if you're spending the max on counter-terrorism and have defensive spies posted in every city)? I sure don't miss it.
Or, in the case of Civ IV BTS, incredibly annoying. Do you miss having your cities constantly poisoned and production interrupted, with no direct way to prevent it (even if you're spending the max on counter-terrorism and have defensive spies posted in every city)? I sure don't miss it.
Here's what I've been thinking about:
Spies should be a civillian unit, which performs missions similair to the way a worker constructs buildings, they must stay on one tile for a specific amount of time. Also, let's say that a mission only remains active while the spy remains stationary, after the "set-up" time has completed.
Also, they must only be visible to other spy units. Perhaps to avoid AI blocking and what not, a new "plane" would have to be implemented, seperate from the Military and Civilian planes.
So let's say their base "vision" rating is 1. So when they are just moving around, or performing certian missions, they can only see 1 space away, and thus not be able to see a spy and attack it during the same turn normally unless they are lucky.
However, let's say that their missions are as follows:
Coutnerespionage: +1 Sight (improvable with SP or Tech), can only detect spies
Military Intelligence: +1 Sight (Improvable with SP or Tech), can only detect military units
Cultural Espionage: Only performable within 3 tiles of a capital, shows adopted SP's and breakdown of culture output
Tech Espionage: Same as culture but for Tech
Economic Espionage: Shows breakdown of GPT, +1 sight, only show workers and settlers
Civil Espionage: Must be performed within two tiles of a city, gives detail on the city spied upon
Diplomatic Espionage: Same rules as Culture, shows relations with other civs and CS's
I'd say that'd be an interesting, balanced, system.
One could also add "Sabotage" class missions, or other more advanced. But for the basics, I think this would do.
Spies should be a civillian unit, which performs missions similair to the way a worker constructs buildings, they must stay on one tile for a specific amount of time. Also, let's say that a mission only remains active while the spy remains stationary, after the "set-up" time has completed.
Also, they must only be visible to other spy units. Perhaps to avoid AI blocking and what not, a new "plane" would have to be implemented, seperate from the Military and Civilian planes.
So let's say their base "vision" rating is 1. So when they are just moving around, or performing certian missions, they can only see 1 space away, and thus not be able to see a spy and attack it during the same turn normally unless they are lucky.
However, let's say that their missions are as follows:
Coutnerespionage: +1 Sight (improvable with SP or Tech), can only detect spies
Military Intelligence: +1 Sight (Improvable with SP or Tech), can only detect military units
Cultural Espionage: Only performable within 3 tiles of a capital, shows adopted SP's and breakdown of culture output
Tech Espionage: Same as culture but for Tech
Economic Espionage: Shows breakdown of GPT, +1 sight, only show workers and settlers
Civil Espionage: Must be performed within two tiles of a city, gives detail on the city spied upon
Diplomatic Espionage: Same rules as Culture, shows relations with other civs and CS's
I'd say that'd be an interesting, balanced, system.
One could also add "Sabotage" class missions, or other more advanced. But for the basics, I think this would do.
SemperFi2382
Mitten Marauder
Espionage has been well documented throughout history. From ancient history to the present, spying has been around. From a pair of eyes in a hostile army to assassination, espionage plays a big enough role to be in civilization. To discount this and say that it was not as important as the wheel is simply comparing an apple to an orange.
Also, saying just use a scout (which technically is a spy) and have open borders is kind of strange considering that you are basically saying you use them as a Spy. However, since to not be a redundant unit, Scouts are pretty obsolete fairly early on with no real means to upgrade and be useful in late game. , why not have Scouts upgrade into spies? Simply give them a promotion to move about in enemy territory unseen. All the extra stuff can be debated to death, but vision is passive enough. Not to mention, that like someone else mentioned, if you prefer to be an isolationist, either by choice or because you are disliked, how do you remedy this?
In Civ4, spies aside, you could use a Caravel to look around. However, since it was only the coast, it really does not do you a whole lot of good later in the game. You also had a Privateer, which fun, still was not an adequate solution alone. You had to use a spy. I'm leaving the other mechanics out of this.
Or with Flight, just give me a spy plane. Furthermore, I can have satellites and see the world, but then I cannot see what is going on after?
Also, saying just use a scout (which technically is a spy) and have open borders is kind of strange considering that you are basically saying you use them as a Spy. However, since to not be a redundant unit, Scouts are pretty obsolete fairly early on with no real means to upgrade and be useful in late game. , why not have Scouts upgrade into spies? Simply give them a promotion to move about in enemy territory unseen. All the extra stuff can be debated to death, but vision is passive enough. Not to mention, that like someone else mentioned, if you prefer to be an isolationist, either by choice or because you are disliked, how do you remedy this?
In Civ4, spies aside, you could use a Caravel to look around. However, since it was only the coast, it really does not do you a whole lot of good later in the game. You also had a Privateer, which fun, still was not an adequate solution alone. You had to use a spy. I'm leaving the other mechanics out of this.
Or with Flight, just give me a spy plane. Furthermore, I can have satellites and see the world, but then I cannot see what is going on after?
Hey yeah! How about a promotion for scouts and planes that let them spy in enemy territory?
ShaneSmith
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2011
- Messages
- 4
I certainly miss spies, they added a whole new dimension for both single and multiplayer games, they allowed for civs that felt they had a bit of a lower edge to pick it up. They were also great for the lead up to wars and to help monitor your enemies
headcase
Limit 1 Facepalm Per Turn
Good show, sir. Forget what I said before about the spy being in the city, I like this! I'd still like to be able to "buy" espionage points against a specific civ using gold, to alter what is possible and how long it takes.
Yeah, it'd need it's own plane. In fact, if spies can only see other spies using the counterespionage mission, then in that case every civ would need their own plane for spies, resulting in the possible but rare scenario of a spy from every civ sharing one tile and none of them knowing about the others (again, iff the counterespionage mission is required for spies to see spies).
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