I miss spies

[turingmachine]

Only thing, is that spies in Civ 5 would need to be classified as a third unit type besides military and civilian. Otherwise invisible/semi-invisible spies + 1UPT = utter disaster.

 

[Nightshades]

Another possibility is to implement espionage without the actual use of units.
Make it like say, a secondary diplomatic screen. You spend gold on different "missions" (such as seeing the opponents production line, their current techs, city information, military information and so on) and if they fail you face diplomatic consequences.

And unlike spies in civ 2 - espionage should be more about gaining information. Planting a nuke with your spy or damage the entire production of a wonder (which you can in civ 2) is just lame and unbalanced.

 

[SemperFi2382]

Only thing, is that spies in Civ 5 would need to be classified as a third unit type besides military and civilian. Otherwise invisible/semi-invisible spies + 1UPT = utter disaster.

I have not really checked under the hood yet, but are submarines on their own plane? Essentially, a spy would operate like a sub on land in terms of invisibility.

 

[AbbieRevo]

Good show, sir. Forget what I said before about the spy being in the city, I like this! I'd still like to be able to "buy" espionage points against a specific civ using gold, to alter what is possible and how long it takes.

Yeah, it'd need it's own plane. In fact, if spies can only see other spies using the counterespionage mission, then in that case every civ would need their own plane for spies, resulting in the possible but rare scenario of a spy from every civ sharing one tile and none of them knowing about the others (again, iff the counterespionage mission is required for spies to see spies).

Thank you sir!

I was thinking spies could always see other spies, but with only 1 base sight, and 2 moves, it would create a situation where the only reasonable way to fight spies would be with counter-espionage. Avoiding the need for multiple spy "planes", and your delightfully kafkaesque scenario of multiple civ's spies all in the same tile not seeing each other.

 

[Nightshades]

I have not really checked under the hood yet, but are submarines on their own plane? Essentially, a spy would operate like a sub on land in terms of invisibility.

That's exactly how they would operate.
The smartest method (of development) is to just add an extra attribute (invisibility) to the already existing unit class - and then a counter-attribute (detection) to whatever will have the ability to detect spies. Military, GP and workers are all running on the same code - they are just shaped by different class attributes.

 

[SemperFi2382]

That's exactly how they would operate.
The smartest method (of development) is to just add an extra attribute (invisibility) to the already existing unit class - and then a counter-attribute (detection) to whatever will have the ability to detect spies. Military, GP and workers are all running on the same code - they are just shaped by different class attributes.

I was more referring to how they operate in terms of movement. Meaning, they cannot block sea tiles from other ships coming through. Or can they? I have never run into the problem of an "invisible" sub blocking my travels, so why wouldn't a spy operate in a similar manner?

 

[Nightshades]

I've never seen a sub block another vessel either - except destroyers or other subs ofc.
And I'm not saying spies shouldn't work as subs - because I think they should.

 

[SemperFi2382]

I've never seen a sub block another vessel either - except destroyers or other subs ofc.
And I'm not saying spies shouldn't work as subs - because I think they should.

Oh, I know. I just wanted to clarify the specific mechanic on movement since that seemed to come up as a possible problem.

 

[Ataxerxes]

I was more referring to how they operate in terms of movement. Meaning, they cannot block sea tiles from other ships coming through. Or can they? I have never run into the problem of an "invisible" sub blocking my travels, so why wouldn't a spy operate in a similar manner?

You have to go back to CivIII for that. There was the infamous "sub bug" where you could be moving your destroyer and, unknown to you, it moved onto a sub and attacked it. You have just declared war! It also worked the other way - you could station a couple of subs offshore of the AI and wait for it to move a ship there. You didn't declare war, they did!

Espionage in CivIV was very powerful. You could actually run an entire economy on espionage, stealing all your techs and then using the spies instead of siege when attacking a city. Problem was, the AI never used spies effectively.

And espionage has been very important in world history. Battle of Midway, among others, might have turned out quite a bit differently had the U.S. not broken the Japanese code. The Zimmerman telegram was a German telegram that the British decoded that had a part in the U.S. entry into WWI. Allied losses in WWII were reduced because the allies had broken the German Enigma code.

 

[SemperFi2382]

You have to go back to CivIII for that. There was the infamous "sub bug" where you could be moving your destroyer and, unknown to you, it moved onto a sub and attacked it. You have just declared war! It also worked the other way - you could station a couple of subs offshore of the AI and wait for it to move a ship there. You didn't declare war, they did!

I remember that exploit in Civ3, but since it was gone in Civ4, it did not matter. Of course, I assume then that problem did not resurface in Civ5?

Espionage in CivIV was very powerful. You could actually run an entire economy on espionage, stealing all your techs and then using the spies instead of siege when attacking a city. Problem was, the AI never used spies effectively.

Espionage in Civ4 had some interesting play styles if you were willing to try a hand at it. Without the sliders though, could you really pull off the same thing in Civ5?

Yeah, the AI really did not do much other than explode a ton of my improvements and maybe poison the water on rare occasion.

And espionage has been very important in world history. Battle of Midway, among others, might have turned out quite a bit differently had the U.S. not broken the Japanese code.

Yeah, I would love to tell Monty that the Island with a GDR is having water supply issues.

 

[AbbieRevo]

Must say I always thought CivIV's system was clunky.

Though my favorite thing about V is that they finally got rid of those ridiculous sliders.

If you wanted a system closer to IV but in the spirit of V, you could have EP generated by buildings, specialists, and maybe even tile improvements. You could even have "Intelligence agreements". Though you would have to have something like the horrible "spy priority" system of IV.

Honestly i'm partial to my own system posted earlier, it would need balancingduh but I think it's closer to the design philosophy of V, which I believe to be simplicity.

 

[Ravellion]

A simple espionage menu for each enemy civ, allowing you more information if you pay very small amounts of money would be nice

10 gold/era: show military strength of Civ (nr of soldiers)
20 gold/era: show a few random tiles of that civs territory. Can be done multiple times to see more an more of the territory
10 gold/era: show the enemy civ tech tree and tech researching


stuff like that. No spy units, please.

 

[pspboy7]

I would like spys back if nothing else but to remind me how bored I am with the diplomacy mechanics.

 

[BranjoHello]

Spies exist in Civ4 and are a lot of use. I, also, really miss them in Civ5. They should be reintroduced.

Possible uses for Civ5 spies:

1) Steal tech.
2) Steal map.
3) Sabotage of buildings / happiness / production.
4) Destroying relationships between two other civs or civ and city state.
5) Stealing Great People. Kidnapping them, if you will, to work for you.
6) Bribing units to join your civ.
7) Bribing cities to join your civ.

Some of these abilities were in earlier versions of the game, obviously.

Great suggestions. I would like soooo much to see this implemented in Civ5. Spies were very useful in Civ4.
I would kiss my spys feet if he could sabotage those damn nukes from other players.