I need help to win Immortal

[DrCron]

Hi everyone,

I had a few comfortable victories on Emperor in the past, and now I'm back in the game to try immortal. After several quick losses, I decided to come here and ask for help. So, here's my current game (I'm Zara Yaqob, just because I never played him before).

Screen shots for turn 1 and 3080 BC:

Spoiler :

I didn't have fishing so I started with a worker, though it would have been nice to get a work boat. I got Bronze working (I'm thinking this might have been a mistake) so my worker would have something to do while I researched fishing, and now I'm building my first work boat. Animal husbandry now to get the pigs and see whether I have horses. With so much land I'm thinking about grabbing 6-7 cities, develop and try to win the lib race, to maybe later invade the Aztecs with cuirassiers and eventually win tech or something like that.

Montezuma is far up north, and Elizabeth appears to be even farther away. Looks like I got all of that land to the west for myself, so I might delay open borders with those guys. I want my 2nd city to be N or NW of my capital, to help me lock that western land. Spot "a" is my first option, close to the copper and to that western river. Spot "b" will only be good after I get IW and can get those bananas. Another option would be to re-start and build my capital 1 tile west of the starting spot (I could have waited for those clams since I didn't have fishing yet). Any thoughts?

I'm also attaching the initial save, in case anyone wants to give it a shot:4

Immortal Pangaea Ethiopia.

 

[Tatran]

Restart and found the capital on the grassland hill SW. Now you're missing 2 food resources, wheat + cow.
City 2a hasn't any food and after a restart, city 2b should go 1 tile west.

 

[DrCron]

Restart and found the capital on the grassland hill SW. Now you're missing 2 food resources, wheat + cow.
City 2a hasn't any food and after a restart, city 2b should go 1 tile west.

Thanks, that makes perfect sense. I'll try it out.

 

[Anysense]

Agree with Tatran. I would add that the start with wheat, cows and pigs is better than the start with seafood because its faster.

 

[yyeah]

Sry i have to disagree SiP looks best for me. Nice capitol !
1st of all you dont need this wheet and cows you have enough food.
2nd you are loosing 2 grassland riverside tiles and marble.Despite thats costal cap, you have a nice cottage spot this way.
I think i would try GLH here, Org fast LH Mansonry one can improove Marble, so founding a city on this island, at some point is a good choice for overseas tr.
But yea 1st city 1W from city 2B, you get border pop and you can shere Pigs and work copper + shere cottages.
Another city i would place on this jungle hill 3E 2 N from cap, next one 4W2S, and this island city.

 

[cseanny]

Agree with yyeah in regards to the wheat. As you move up in levels it becomes more important to streamline your opening. Ask yourself stuff like, Do I need Agr? Do I need AH? Do I need BW? Etc etc.

I'd opt to open AH > Fish > Wrt > Alpha. AH works some strong tiles regardless where you decide to settle. Fish will give you some nice commerce to tech a bit quicker and after you've made a few Settlers you can quickly make a Library and run some scientist while still making some workers (which you wont need quickly w/out the techs anyways) and get Alpha fast.

Fast Alpha also allows you to Bribe Monty into a War against someone besides him attacking you. Fast Alpha gets you BW, Agr, Whl, Myst, Med, Sailing, and Potery guaranteed. You might even get get Masonry (doubtful but u could) and Priesthood. Anyways, I'd be willing to settle a city or 2 less in order to bribe Monty and get such a massive backfill. You could definitely Oracle something nice AND get TGLH this route too.

 

[DrCron]

Ok, I've followed a mix of the two options mentioned here, and this happened:

Spoiler :

1) The good: moved my capital, but left it still in range of marble and pigs. 2nd city (Gondar) shared the pigs and got the copper, while the 3rd city (Lalibela) got cows and wheat, so I didn't waste any resources. Initial tech was AH-BW (otherwise my worker wouldn't have anything to do after the pigs)-Fishing-WR-Alpha. Then I traded for everything else, which worked perfectly (thanks cseanny for the suggestion of b-lining alpha here).
2) The bad: I founded Addis Abbaba and then I opened borders with the Aztecs. This was a stupid mistake, I should have known they would get that barb city (Gaul). Now they are behind my back and I'm stuck with a city that has almost no production (moai statues should help, but they take time). Also, it's almost 1 AD and I only have 5 cities. This is because I had many issues with happiness, since I couldn't get the Aztec's religion to avoid being hated by everyone else, and didn't dare getting a different one. Also, I just now got calendar, and I could only trade luxury resources from other civs like 5 turns ago.
3) My plans: I marked where I would settle cities 6 and 7. 6 gets me iron (shares wheat) and 7 will get me the horses (shares cows) to eventually take over all Aztec land with cuirassiers (and maybe the Ottomans, if everything goes well). I'm creative so maybe my cultural pressure will be enough to get Gaul from the Aztecs, if I help with some Ethiopian super monuments.

The tech situation looks decent, I still have a monopoly on Aesthetics, I'm going for literature now, I should get it fast enough to get The Great Library without any issues (especially with that marble). I'll start with The Parthenon next turn too, not sure if I'll get it but it should be some nice failgold anyway. I might still be able to tade currency for monarchy.

I was very lucky with the diplo situation. Neither the Aztecs or the Ottomans would take Alpha or Aesthetics to attack each other, but the Aztecs decided to attack the Ottomans anyway. Greeks and Vikings are fighting the Americans, it looks like they will win and the Greeks will eventually be the strongest rival. England is not fighting anyone but they are not doing well anyway. I'm not sure how long will the fight between the Aztecs and the Ottomans last, but I really want to convert to judaism. Should I do it and get a decent army to avoid being attacked if the Aztecs make peace with the Ottomans?

 

[yyeah]

c6 1E on Incense take wheet
tbh i dont like this c7 spot either, scout this area better maybe you will find some food.
If you want to sw in to rel its probably best moment to do so.

 

[DrCron]

c6 1E on Incense take wheet
tbh i dont like this c7 spot as either, scout this area better maybe you will find some food.
If you want to sw in to rel its probably best moment to do so.

Yup, I messed that annotation, but my objective with c6 was the incense, to share the wheat as you pointed out. I could scout a bit better for c7, maybe there's fish on that coast, as long as I get those horses any location should be ok.

Regarding religion: I can get Org Rel for faster Parthenon and especially Great Library (not to mention moai statues on Addis Abeba). If I trade for Monarchy next turn (which should happen), I can switch civics then. In that case, getting judaism this turn looks like the best idea.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

The revolt plan seems good (religion then HR+OR).

You're probably in need for some more workers.
You'll need them to grow your cities onto improved tiles. Your cities are very small. And that could be due to that lack of workers.

--> You've put down too many unnecessary roads.
You should try to prioritize chops/improvements over roads when they're not contributing to your trade network.
--> You should probably try to improve the riverside first.
Farm when cities need food. Cottage otherwise.
A good way to assess whether a city needs food is to check how many turns it needs to grow 1 size and compare it with its happy surplus. If a city needs 6 turns to grow 1 size and it has a decent happy surplus, then that's very slow. Mediocre cities would grow in 3-4 turns. Most excellent cities can grow in about 2 turns. Sometimes it happens, when Biology is unleashed, that all cities can grow in 1 turn.
From your pic, only Aksum and Lalibela seem to have a good food surplus.


Some of your cities aren't working their best food tile. You can probably fix that.
Sometimes the governor will do that if commerce/hammers are emphasized and not food. Or when a city would grow into unhappiness.
Emphasizing food with the governor is a simple way to avoid that.
Growing into unhappiness isn't bad by any means :
- the extra pop is production if you whip it ;
- it can become active if you get new sources of happiness (e.g. Aksum could very well get +6 happiness in the next few turns - religion, HR, calendar resources). So growing ahead in anticipation for extra happies... makes sense. That's especially true before Monarchy.

I think Gondar could control the banana tile.
Maybe you should make culture a priority in that city. Unless you're planning a short term war against the Aztecs.


All in all, the game seems manageable from your position.
You've got a decent chunk of land. You're in the tech race.
You should be weary, however, that your overall commerce output + production is very low. So, if you don't react, you might find the AIs run away.

Settling the west should be another short term priority. And maybe you should scout the south as well (island ?).
Montezuma will become annoyed with you when you'll switch to Judaism. Therefore, it would be better to plan an invasion than to set up a defensive plan.
If Cuirassiers seem too far away, you can maybe do with Macemen & siege & (optional) a war ally.
Actually, since he's already at war with the Ottomans, you could be best served by trying for a fast military build-up (balanced with workers & maybe settlers). Montezuma is backwards and you won't face anything other than archers, jaguars, axes and chariots for a while. If you get your hands onto Contruction and pump 10 to 15 units... you know...

Summary : working more improved tiles is what you need.
Farming & chopping can get you there.




EDIT :
There's no immediate threat (Feudalism) but it's good to keep it in mind for the future :
One way you can lose this game is if/when the Ottomans/Aztecs vassal each other.
That's another reason to get involved in their war.

 

[DrCron]

Thanks BornInCantalup, that was some detailed advice, it helps a lot!

I kept playing and I think I have a chance to win the game. This is what happened (I need help deciding my final path to attempt victory):

Spoiler :

I kept an eye on the almost constant conflict between Aztecs and Ottomans, but it was always balanced, so no risk there even after Feudalism. I waited until Cuirs and attacked the Aztecs on 1310, I had 8 cities at the time.

I got Gaul in 1 turn and 2 more cities in a few turns. Monti still had a huge stack in his capital so that one took a bit more than expected. I eventually took it with Cavalry, and to my surprise Monti still didn't capitulate. So I Took Texcoco in the North and then I got him. He's my vassal now with only 3 cities. Too bad he had the same resourced I had. I'm trading with Alex to get extra luxuries, and I don't like this since Alex is strong.

Far from my land, Alex has attacked and vassaled America some time ago. I couldn't do anything to stop this and Alex is clearly my main problem. He's now attacking England. Lizzy is pleased with me but I don't think I can get her to Friendly to peace vassal her fast enough, especially since she won't talk to me (had to cancel trades due to AP resolution that I lost, Alex has the AP). So I'm moving my troops to attack her. I'll still lose her to Alex, but at least I might get London from her to gift it to the Aztecs.

Alex is doing great in tech, but Suleiman doesn't have Mil Trad yet. I could attack him, especially since he's at war with Ragnar right now. Although I don't like the idea of fighting janissaries.

So now I'm thinking of 2 possible ways of winning the game:

1) Attacking Suleiman (at least 1 of his cities is really close to my land) and vassaling him. Maybe following up with Ragnar. Try to get Mass Media before Alex for the UN, then getting diplo victory.

2) Forgetting about fighting those janissaries, switching to Free market + Free Rel now (and Representation + Caste once I have whipped some more angry citizens from Aztec cities) to go straight to a tech victory. I have 13 cities and Alex has 12 plus a ton of wonders, but it doesn't look like he'll get Free Rel very soon. I might be able to convince Vikings and Ottomans to make peace, and then give them some military techs for them to go together against Alex, but I'm not sure if this will work. Attacking Alex myself is not in the plans due to him having rifling and especially being in the opposite extreme of the map.

What do you think of those 2 options? Is there another way of winning the game that I missed? I'd rather not go for nukes if possible.

 

[DrCron]

How many units do you have left ?
How much can you pump ?
Is your army active or do you need to recover ?

(...)


Overall, if you don't need much time to (re)build-up, I'd try the world war scenario.
If your army is in shambles, I'd settle for the English invasion.

Good luck !

Thanks! I already gifted techs to the Aztecs, will give them some more next turn. Right now I have less than 10 cavalry units left (and a few cuirs), although all of my original cities are building more at a more or less decent rate. I think I'll have to attack England first, with only 3 cities and outdated troops, they are an easy prey.

In the meantime, I'll see how easy it is to stop the war between Suleiman and Ragnar, to try your World War vs Alex idea soon, it really sounds good the way you describe it. I'll just need to wait a few turns until my new cavalry units reach whatever cities I take from England, so I can start from a safe position. I think if I get enough cities from Roosevelt I might be able to "un-vassal" him from Greece and at that point it should be easy.

Question: is it worth it to waste 1 turn to switch into Free Market and Free rel? I have no echonomic civic now and Org Rel (I didn't have time to change to Theocracy before the war, and I'm not building infrastructure now). It looks like the change should help me keep up with Alex in tech. Or maybe Theocracy instead of Free Rel, to keep the religious diplo bonus with Suleiman?

 

[DrCron]

Oh well, I had to give up, things didn't go as planned.

Long story short:

Spoiler :

I attacked Lizzy and got London in 2 turns, but then Alex got another one of her cities and with her last city still standing she capitulated to him. I stopped the war between Ottomans and Vikings but none of them would attack Alex at this point, they were afraid of him. I just had 1 more city than Alex and it didn't look like I could win the tech race, so I decided to attack and try to take the last English city, that was really close to my army. I sent about 12 cavalary units to a hill 2 tiles away from the city, and in 1 turn Alex destroyed all of them (I should have realized that his troops would still be close) and took London from me. At this point I dont't think I had a chance of ever beating him.

Some lessons learned:

Spoiler :

1) Don't underestimate the first game leader, especially if they are far from you and you can't stop them in the early game (I should have sent more people against him IMO, earlier).

2) Maximize your turns. Less unnecesary roads, plan the revolutions better, plan the NE city better (I didn't have enough GP in this game, among other things).

3) Keep an eye on CIVs that can get the wonders you want (I lost the Taj Mahal because I didn't pay attention).

4) Do everything faster. For example, I think I could have attacked Monti earlier in this game, and that would have allowed me to get the English before Alex did.

Thanks everyone (and especially BiC) for the help, I think this was the closest I've ever been to beat Immortal. I'll probably try the Nobles Club next, to play with the rest of the people in the forum and learn more.

 

[DrCron]

Well, it was a good try

Did the Vikings and Ottomans refuse to be bribed against Alex after you declared war on him ?
That would be bad, indeed.
Maybe the fact that he vassaled Elizabeth played a role in that refusal.
It might be interesting to check an earlier save to see if they would be bribed before he got her as a vassal (and after you DoW him).

Ah, I didn't check this, it might have made a difference indeed. Still, considering how ridiculously fast Alex destroyed my 12 cavalry units (and still had time to take London), it seems his army was way too big at this point. Vikings and Ottomans weren't so strong, so he might have even vassaled one of them before I got the time to take cities from him.

Before he vassaled England... well, that might have been doable, since at that point he still had one more enemy. I should check it out. Thanks for all the advice!