I stall out in Liberty

[Gus_Smedstad]

I do pretty well whenever I go with a straight Tradition start, or at least Tradition through Monarchy and Aristocracy. In theory, Liberty is supposed to be good for expansion, particularly with a free settler and benefits that work for 5+ cities where some of Tradition's important benefits stop at 4 cities.

That was true with Gods and Kings, but with Brave New World, I find I stall out around my second city with Liberty. Mostly it's money, which is in short supply in the early stages of BNW, though it picks up later if you've got a lot of trade routes going.

About the time I found my second city with Liberty I find that I'm running negative in cash flow. The difference being paying upkeep for those Monuments and not having +2 or +3 gold / turn from Monarchy. Happiness is also an issue, since Monarchy is giving me 2-3 Happiness long before Meritocracy can possibly do so with Liberty. I can afford the 3-4 archers to convert to Composite Bows with Tradition, and I can't with Liberty.

If I push ahead anyway and ignore the cash problem, about the time I found 4 cities and have 3-4 archers, I'm broke. I can't afford the 240-320 gold required to upgrade my archers.

Liberty may save you the hammer cost of your first Settler, but Tradition saves you the hammer cost of those Monuments and the upkeep to boot.

So what are you doing to expand rapidly with Liberty? Not building Monuments, since the +1 Culture / city is enough to get some border expansion, and fund some social policy advancement? Only going Liberty if you have excellent income from luxuries (which happens sometimes)? Something else?

 

[b5fan]

I beeline for guilds for TP. Put one on every hill. Use the free GP for a prophet which usually gives you a decent happiness bonus from religion. Also I move to honor for one more happy and 2 bonus culture. After that hit exploration for 3 prod per city and more coastal happiness. Than rationalism for 2 science per specialist. Go freedom at industrial and after a while you can stomp over everyone with 30-40 cities and 30 excess happiness.

This works best for Poland but it should work for others as well.

 

[joshua43214]

Going negative gpt is fine. Just make sure you get stuff improved and sold, then ride it out until you get markets and the problem goes away. If you are having happiness issues, you are either not settling a unique lux for each city, or growing them too fast. Just be willing to hold them at very low pop until you get happiness buildings and try to pick a local mercantile CS to perma-ally

 

[intutama]

I'm trying going Liberty too, I think the problem is that everyone (including myself) sees Liberty as a rapid expansion opener, while really it's designed for wide empires. This means the goal isn't to get a running 7 cities empire by turn 60, but to have it at turn 90 or something like that.

The main issue is that in BNW, trade roads are efficient only when the target city is of size 4 and 4 tiles away from the cap, and then it's only breaking even. This means you can't use the +1h from road until quite late, otherwise you're even more broke. Plus with the Ceremonial Burial being halved, you also have less help here.

So actually Liberty should be used to pop cities, let them grow to size 3 to 5, then pop new cities as soon as the happiness allows it. This mean you actually have to stay in positive happiness and must not expand as fast as in GK. I think the idea is also that you have to conquer enemy cities if you don't have any more room to expand.


PS: if you're not going to have 7 cities or more it doesn't make really sense to go liberty.

 

[Walter E Kurtz]

The benefit of higher difficulties is that the AI always has money to spend, so that you can sell your early luxuries and strategics for max cash. On lower difficulties I would say you need to cut costs by having less units to being with, unless you're planning early conquest. Which will probably put you in negative happiness.

On the happiness front there's only so much you can do in the early game. Prioritize CS quests and maybe trade luxuries.

 

[Papa Igor]

I do pretty well whenever I go with a straight Tradition start, or at least Tradition through Monarchy and Aristocracy. In theory, Liberty is supposed to be good for expansion, particularly with a free settler and benefits that work for 5+ cities where some of Tradition's important benefits stop at 4 cities.

That was true with Gods and Kings, but with Brave New World, I find I stall out around my second city with Liberty. Mostly it's money, which is in short supply in the early stages of BNW, though it picks up later if you've got a lot of trade routes going.

About the time I found my second city with Liberty I find that I'm running negative in cash flow. The difference being paying upkeep for those Monuments and not having +2 or +3 gold / turn from Monarchy. Happiness is also an issue, since Monarchy is giving me 2-3 Happiness long before Meritocracy can possibly do so with Liberty. I can afford the 3-4 archers to convert to Composite Bows with Tradition, and I can't with Liberty.

If I push ahead anyway and ignore the cash problem, about the time I found 4 cities and have 3-4 archers, I'm broke. I can't afford the 240-320 gold required to upgrade my archers.

Liberty may save you the hammer cost of your first Settler, but Tradition saves you the hammer cost of those Monuments and the upkeep to boot.

So what are you doing to expand rapidly with Liberty? Not building Monuments, since the +1 Culture / city is enough to get some border expansion, and fund some social policy advancement? Only going Liberty if you have excellent income from luxuries (which happens sometimes)? Something else?

Hi! Sorry for my bad english.

Yesterday I've beat the game using Tradition and Liberty: America, deity, Pangaea, all standard, all is on.

New York was founded at T62, Boston at T71. One worker I took from CS, other two from the Pyramids. Hard built two archers, one bought. One was killed by a barbarian, one I made a gift to a CS, and one remained an archer till the end of the game just for fun.

All my cities hard built Monuments, and got free Amphitheaters.

In Ancient Era i built three wonders: Temple Artemis (45), Pyramids (57), Mausoleum Halicarnassus (84).

Won at T312 with a SV. Could've done it earlier, but I played with my own conditions: religion without Piety and helping the CS, peaceful (no wars with major civs), build all "open" post-industrial wonders.

Statistics:

Wonders (World and National):

Temple Artemis (45), Pyramid (57), Mausoleum Halicarnassus (84), Oracle (96), Writers Guild (100), National College (108), National Epic (119), Hanging Garden (127), Hagia Sophia (136), Angkor Wat (146), Grand Temple (158), Oxford University (159), Sistine Chapel (167), Artists Guild (167), Porcelain Tower (170), Ironworks (172), Musicians Guild (177), Taj Mahal (183), National Treasury (186), Big Ben (195), Brandenburg Gate (199), Hermitage (213), Circus Maximus (215), Statue Of Liberty (224), Broadway (240), Eiffel Tower (242), Neuschwanstein (243), Cristo Redentor (254), Intelligence Agency (260), Heroic Epic (263), Cn Tower (281), Sydney Opera House (283), Hubble (296), Pentagon (298), Great Firewall (304)

Policies:

Tradition (all), Liberty (Collective Rule, Republic), Commerce, Rationalism (all), Exploration (Maritime Infrastructure), Freedom (Open Society, Civil Society, Volunteer Army, Covert Action, Capitalism, Their Finest Hour, Universal Suffrage, Arsenal Democracy, Media Culture, Treaty Organization, Space Procurements, Universal Healthcare)

Beliefs:

One With Nature, Tithe, Divine Inspiration, Pagodas, Holy Order.

Screenshots:

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

No you beat the game going tall with 3 cities and using Tradition. Probably most common winning strategy and I use it all the time my self. Perhaps stretch it out to 4 cities sometimes.

My biggest problem with Liberty is that I never ever really go beyond 4 cities. I only use a Liberty start if my starting location is low on hammers. But then once I upped my production I switch to Tradition.

 

[Papa Igor]

No you beat the game going tall with 3 cities and using Tradition. Probably most common winning strategy and I use it all the time my self. Perhaps stretch it out to 4 cities sometimes.

With my game conditions (see previous post), I have to play with the three cities.
I played the role play. So just follow the recommended strategies can not.

In BNW play a bunch of Tradition-Liberty easy for Poland, but more difficult for America. Additionally I put a condition to play through faith, without opening a branch Piety. This makes the game more difficult, but interesting.

 

[casualplayer]

There's only two real drawbacks to Liberty. You have to build your own Aquaducts (and maintain them) and you make your National College more expensive to build because of the number of cities you have settled at that point. That's why many people use the finisher GP for an Engineer and rush NC.

If you're content with having several moderately strong cities, Liberty is the way to go. If you are capital-centric Tradition then,

 

[TLHeart]

I don't build aqueducts during the early game. The cities will grow nicely without them to size 10. National college costs the same no matter which tree you open. I. Build it after 2 city has library, and as soon as it is built drop city 3, and 4. Yes the capital will be 1 or 2 population smaller at this point than a tradition start, but the empior total is larger.

By the industrial era, a liberty start that uses the benefits from the tree will be larger and stronger, can build wonders and an army at the same time.

But the current band wagon is liberty is not as good as tradition.. Due to the fact one can develope a rote strategy, of do the same thing at the same time, and win a quick SV, without thinking.

Liberty takes some thought, and adjustments to ones neighbors and the terrain.

 

[Luven]

Most oft the answers here probably weren’t that useful. Reason being Liberty is hard to pull off. And Tradition is almost always bette at everything. 4 Cities are almost always better at everything than 5 or more. Even Liberty 4 city is probably stsronger than liberty 6 city(at least when going for turn times). And tradition 4 Citiy is Stronger than Liberty 4 City. All that being said I love to try to make Liberty work.

I really dont think it is possible to pull off faster winning turn times with Liberty than with Tradition. The Tradition snowball is faster. National wonders are too strong and a science focus will always outperfom anything else if you are going for fast wins.

My advice is for Deity or Immortal (mostly Deity) Standard Pangaea or Continents starts.

Everyone who goes Liberty has gold problems early on and hapiness problems a bit later (or all game long).

If you find a culture Ruin early or you are Poland. Go Tradition opener and then Liberty.

Capital goes something like: Scout, Scout, Shrine, Monument, Granary or Worker , Archer, Caravan or Worker, Settlers, Settler or Worker, Settler.

Build 1-3 Archers if you need them, build Caravan only if you can trade with other Civilizations and have good production (dont waste like 11 tuns), start settlers only after you got the free one, always steal at least one worker better two. Change build order depending on map and situation. Building a very fast settler can be well worth it when you have a good natural wonder.

2nd City comes from the free Settler. By that time you need 2 workers ready. One at capital and one is already walking towads the 2nd cities luxury. Go for: Monument, Shrine, Worker,Colosseum. DO NOT grow more than 3 or max 4 pop.

3rd, 4th Cities come soon after the 2nd since the Capital can produce settlers pretty fast now. Monument, Shrine, Colosseum.

Build Archers if you need them. Workers improve luxuries and Strategics first. At this point you need to be able to either sell 2 spare lux for 6gpt each. Or you need good Mining resources. A lot of Micromanaging is needed to get all cities to 3 pop asap. And then stop and switch to production / gold tiles. You need at least 1 worker per City + 1.

Next thing is building Roads. I often start when some cities are still pop 2. We need hapiness. 2nd city probably starts building colosseum soon. Archers run around and kill barb camps for city state quests.

We have not spent any gold. From sales you probably have between 200 (if you were arount +1 all the time) and 600 if you have friends. Goal ist o get a city state, either buy him or send a trade route or kill barbs.

As soon as roads are up, Libery tree is getting filled and +1 hapiness from shrines is kicking in, and you should get at least one city state, colosseums are getting up aswell you should have enough hapiness to continue building cities. I mostly go Monument, Colosseum. Liberty finisher can be a Prophet for a Religion or a Merchant to buy a City state and get 400 gold (underrated in my opinion) or an engeneer for petra (probably gone) or NC or Oracle.

Grow your cities controlled. Most of the time you are out of space now and you have to go to War (use XBows). Normally I raze everything except Cities with good wonders. Sometimes you can puppet or annex a good Capital.

 

[Ribannah]

So far I haven't had any serious money problems in BNW with liberty. The idea is that with many cities you also have a lot of stuff to sell.

Don't build a huge military unless you plan conquest. Then the conquered cities and the peace deals will provide you with cash. Military that is doing nothing is expensive.

 

[TLHeart]

I never have money or happiness problems with liberty. One has to understand when to found the next city. And when to connect that city to the capital for the trade and happiness bonus.

Now if your goal is to win in 240 turns, I have never done that with liberty, but that is also not my goal, or the reason I play CIV

 

[Plumfairy]

I don't build aqueducts during the early game.

When I go Liberty, I usually only build aqueducts in 1 or 2 major cities. For all the rest, I'm content to have them grow slower. (I do build granaries in most cities, though.)

In BNW Liberty can be really effective, but it has a totally different playstyle than it did in G&K. Rather than being all about rapid expansion, it now encourages relatively slow but steady expansion. Found 2 cities, build NC, found 1 or 2 more, maybe wage a war, found or annex 1 or 2 more cities, etc. It's kind of a cool tree.

 

[Gort]

I do wonder if Liberty would be better if it was +2 happiness per city connection, not +1.

I mean, think about it - Tradition gives you +1 happiness per two citizens in your capital. A size 30 capital is easy to achieve, but let's use it as a baseline. That's +15 happiness Tradition gives you, and you don't even need to worry about building roads, it's just there. Liberty would require you to have 16 cities in total to equal that, which is a pretty massive number on a standard map. If it was +2 happiness per city connection, you'd only need a total of 8 cities to be getting what Tradition gives you in happiness, which seems a lot more reasonable.

I wouldn't mind them making Honour's garrisons +2 happiness as well for similar reasons.

 

[Ninakoru]

Liberty is seriously pressed by gold and happiness, however you can (and must) exploit all mechanics available to get every inch of them. CS quests, caravans, early markets and colosseums... Trade luxs and specially strategic resources!

 

[TandooriChicken]

I think part of the issue is that Liberty requires a bit more micro to do well. You have to be very conscious of your population in each city and judicious in what you build. With Tradition, the goal is essentially always maximize growth in your few cities. With Liberty, there are many times where you may want your satellite cities to not grow. There are many buildings you do not want to build.

I find the choice is dictated mainly by the map and one's neighbors. In particular, when I have an aggressive neighbor and war is inevitable, I will go Liberty in anticipation of a large number of puppet cities. As another poster correctly notes, an inactive or purely defensive military is not an efficient use of hammers.


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[Eadigit]

If you go for the free worker first, then get honor and camp out at a few barbarian sites for extra culture then build second city after representation, third city after free settler, fourth after meritocracy, you can use the free great person for an engineer and build Machu Pichu, assuming you have a mountain nearby. There's a point in the game where you can go wide, but it's only feasible in g&k with Rationalism (free thought, trading posts and university in size six cities, especially if you have jungles), because of the science penalty.

That's my thoughts on that, I almost always finish liberty for a free wonder.

 

[Eadigit]

If you go for the free worker first, then get honor and camp out at a few barbarian sites for extra culture then build second city after representation, third city after free settler, fourth after meritocracy, you can use the free great person for an engineer and build Machu Pichu, assuming you have a mountain nearby. There's a point in the game where you can go wide, but it's only feasible in g&k with Rationalism (free thought, trading posts and university in size six cities, especially if you have jungles), because of the science penalty.

That's my thoughts on that, I almost always finish liberty for a free wonder.