I still can't get over protective trait

[kristopherb]

Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot?

What are you trying to say? I'm sticking with underrated myself, but you say simultaneously that it is underrated for its strength but it's weak? Agh! Logic hole!

im saying that the trait as it is underrated but still needs a boost.

 

[Vizzini]

It just boggles me how as many as five prateorians can't capture a city with just three archers.

Of course they can't - what makes you think that they could?

Even if you bring a catapult, since archers have only 3 health each

You have GOT to stop thinking like that. An Archer in a city has a lot more than 3 health.

3 Strength
+50% for unit trait (+1.5)
+25% for city defense promotion (+0.75)
+25% fortification bonus (+0.75)
+20% Culture(?) (+0.75)
+50% Walls(?) (+1.5)
+50% Hill(?) (+1.5)

An Archer in a city is potentially a 9.75 Strength defender in a worst case scenario and most important of all: First Strike

You cannot attack at 5:3 odds without heavy bombardment to take out tile bonuses followed up by at least 2 or 3 cats to hurt the defenders enough that your Praetorians have a chance and this would be the case regardless of the Protective trait.

If it were me attacking that city? Five Praetorians and three Catapults would be my attack stack. All 3 cats would die - none of the Praetorians would.

Honestly I hate this trait so bad that I refuse to play with any asian's, so if it's Firaxis' intention to make me a racist, then they're succeeding.

The protective trait has nothing to do with why you're losing these battles, since the AI will almost always give Archers the City Garrison training even without the trait automatically. You're losing the battles because you're not bringing enough to do the job.

 

[Antilogic]

@Re/\/\eDy: So you won't play Mongolia, a clearly Asian country with two leaders who don't have the Protective trait? I agree that India and the Ottomans belong more in the Middle East culture group than the East Asian culture group (despite being both on the continent of Asia), but you can't pull that with Mongolia.

@Vizzini: What you said is correct: praetorians are strong, but even they need some siege support every once in awhile.

 

[MisterBarca]

It just boggles me how as many as five prateorians can't capture a city with just three archers. Even if you bring a catapult, since archers have only 3 health each, there is very little collateral damage and if you fail or back down from your attack for just ONE turn, then you could be facing near fully healed archers again! What's worse, the AI seems smart enough to whip an extra archer by the time I walk to their city, so what would have been three archers, ends up being four! Of course the madness doesn't stop there -- once they get longbowman, you might as well give up attacking them until you get Infantry!

Firaxis should really consider toning this trait down. I think the trait itself is not just lame because it's overpowered, but because of its unoriginality. I mean what, were all Asian nations renowned for their ability to defend themselves, or something? Hell, technically China doesn't even count because both Ghangis Khan and his son died before their armies marched over there. I would have much rather seen ANYTHING else, like a diplomacy trait or a lightning unit speed trait, or something. Honestly I hate this trait so bad that I refuse to play with any asian's, so if it's Firaxis' intention to make me a racist, then they're succeeding.

What a tool

 

[MisterBarca]

I must agree that this thread made me laugh, mainly because I got so used to reading complaints about the protective trait.

Even longbowmen (protective civ or not) make taking cities a little more difficult, but even the prat should be able to conquer those cities. Prat's are so cheap for a CR maceman that you should almost easily be able to overwhelm the longbowmen.

protective overpowered

No kidding. As I said, the guy's a tool.

 

[martin031]

What a tool

You opened up a thread from months ago just to insult someone?

 

[vicawoo]

It seems it's been buffed indirectly by BTS with the AI upgrades, with the ai getting shock crossbows.

 

[GuitarHero]

I see no reason to weaken Protective, you should have the guts to take the bad and the good!

 

[Antilogic]

Not to mention the boost to castle production makes it easier to get that +25% espionage points. The trait has gotten a number of "indirect" boosts.

 

[jimbob27]

I think it's a great trait. As soon as you get to gunpowder, you get 2 free promotions for every unit, 3 with Japan. It's like having a UU in every era.

I've found one of the biggest advantages, is it allows me to stretch my army further when I'm warmongering, and makes me less fearful of counterattacks against newly captured cities.

With a regular civ, I might feel confident leaving 3 healthy and 3 injured units in a city on the turn I capture it. With a protective civ, I'll leave 2 healty units to protect the city and the 3 injured units, and then send the spare unit off with the rest of the stack.... to attack the next city.

 

[Blossome]

... pfff... monti had - of three cities in total - in his capitol just 3 archers when i started approaching into his territory... after three turns by the time i arrived he had added 3 axeman, 3 archers and one of his special units... to top it off, he seemed being able to add like every turn just another unit thereafter... big baaaah!... i decided to retreat with my 20 horsearchers and two axemen and attack his other cities instead... wasnt even worth trying... ::giggle::...

 

[Casper84]

I say people find it underpowered in general, because they are on the offensive, not defending.
If you're being attacked it is very useful, provided the AI attack the city, but usually they go plundering around. Hmm....
One thing is certain for me. If I select opponents for a match that needs extensive warfare, I avoid selecting protective civs. They are simply a pain in the ass when it comes to conquering their cities in a time they have archers or musketmen as their main defenders. And getting a good finish requires early warfare, against archers.

 

[T34]

With Japan wait for musketmen as these start with the agg/pro promotions. You can really get a stupidly powerful unit from the free promotions you get when you build them.

 

[Pikkis]

You have GOT to stop thinking like that. An Archer in a city has a lot more than 3 health.

3 Strength
+50% for unit trait (+1.5)
+25% for city defense promotion (+0.75)
+25% fortification bonus (+0.75)
+20% Culture(?) (+0.75)
+50% Walls(?) (+1.5)
+50% Hill(?) (+1.5)

An Archer in a city is potentially a 9.75 Strength defender in a worst case scenario and most important of all: First Strike

Culture defence and physical defence (Walls/Castle) don't stack. I'm not sure if Chichen Itza improves cultural defence too, or just physical defence.

With Japan wait for musketmen as these start with the agg/pro promotions. You can really get a stupidly powerful unit from the free promotions you get when you build them.

Don't forget Samurais. They start with Drill I in Beyond the Sword expansion pack, which makes very powerful. Aggressive/Protective-Musketmen defence is more than alright, but I'd attack when I have large Samurai stack, not when I complete researching of Gunpowder.

 

[Jasonsligh]

Protective was not exciting for me until I used...

1) Churchill's drill promoted (and veteran/upgraded bows) redcoats to dominate

2) Sitting Bull's dogs and super archers as cheap defense for pillage or city cracking stacks. Cheap (no resource, low hammers) is the only true offensive benefit. Just bring a bunch and keep upgrading/promoting those bows so that you might field a respectable musket or rifle stack down the road. You will have to put hammers into swords, cats, HAs, etc...to break cities though. A dog rush is possible I guess, just never had a situation where it seemed possible the few times I've played with Sitting Bull.

I've yet to play with China/CKN's, mini promoted siege/bow units with a melee bonus sounds awesome on paper.

 

[King Kalmah]

Protective was not exciting for me until I used...

1) Churchill's drill promoted (and veteran/upgraded bows) redcoats to dominate

2) Sitting Bull's dogs and super archers as cheap defense for pillage or city cracking stacks. Cheap (no resource, low hammers) is the only true offensive benefit. Just bring a bunch and keep upgrading/promoting those bows so that you might field a respectable musket or rifle stack down the road. You will have to put hammers into swords, cats, HAs, etc...to break cities though. A dog rush is possible I guess, just never had a situation where it seemed possible the few times I've played with Sitting Bull.

I've yet to play with China/CKN's, mini promoted siege/bow units with a melee bonus sounds awesome on paper.

1.PRO was way tougher pre BTS

2.This thread is from 5 years ago.

3.The OP makes a good point I avoid having some of these civs in my games (Korea,China,Japan) due to their PRO traits,but Sury is in alot of games now and he is either weak or powerful(all about his nieghbors)...

3.If you go straight to bronze working and rush evey nieghbor with Dogs you can dominate,but once they get archery you are stuck till cats or trebs,,,

and 5......I want some tips with PRO since I have never really used it...

I have played as Sitting Bull and Toku,but never finished a game as a PRO leader....

 

[Rubio]

Just attack with knight-cuirs'-cavalry, all these ignore first strikes, and those drill promos go down the toilet...

 

[Akbarthegreat]

Protective was not exciting for me until I used...

1) Churchill's drill promoted (and veteran/upgraded bows) redcoats to dominate

2) Sitting Bull's dogs and super archers as cheap defense for pillage or city cracking stacks. Cheap (no resource, low hammers) is the only true offensive benefit. Just bring a bunch and keep upgrading/promoting those bows so that you might field a respectable musket or rifle stack down the road. You will have to put hammers into swords, cats, HAs, etc...to break cities though. A dog rush is possible I guess, just never had a situation where it seemed possible the few times I've played with Sitting Bull.

I've yet to play with China/CKN's, mini promoted siege/bow units with a melee bonus sounds awesome on paper.

THE NECRO TO END ALL NECROS!!!!

5 YEARS!!!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I was half hoping this would be the thread that prompted the designers to nerf protective back in the day. Oh well.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Hmm, if one was gonna cast revive, they could have picked a better thread.