I still find Espionage to be pretty offensive

[SirWozzel]

If you are really bothered with AI spies you can use Cryptography policy and use a spy with Polygraph promotion on counterespionage... -3 level is huge

The problem is not catching the spies, its that my spy stops counterspying after catching/killing an enemy spy. The AI has 2-3 spies stacked up and they all pop on the same turn so I catch the first one and my spy calls job done for the turn and the other two succeed.

 

[steveg700]

Well, the AI tends to go after the same targets over and over. And you may well know which high-yield campuses or themed theaters to protect. But it is obnoxious with some missions like Siphon Funds, where any old Commerical Hub will do.

I've come to appreciate the AI's aggressive use of spies. It's something can actually not botch up due to 1UPT. Now if it could just figure out how to build an airport....

 

[Victoria]

I only noticed the renew mission on spies that did not catch any enemy spies, every time I have caught a spy I have needed to set them to counterspy again even after max level. In my most recent game I happened to catch a spy every turn so it got old pretty quick. Unless I am missing something of course.

You are likely right, I should have thought more about when I see it.

-3 level is huge

Not if they are lvl3 with a +2 promo, it is tiny then.

 

[CorwynCorey]

[QUOTE="ExemplarVoss, post: 15381433, member: 285420"Three, FBI has nothing to do with espionage. They investigate federal crimes (hence the name), which is why they have offices all over.[/QUOTE]

Heck, I dont even live there and even I know that the FBI is a main line of defense against things like terrorism etc. there... coupled with the NSA. So yeah.. since things like “disrupt this” and removing governors are basicly terrorist acts...

Though i do agree with the OP that defense against much is almostpointless, it isnt completely so. Protect what gets hit. Use spies for defense that improve levels of other spies, or have a radius. Try to build important districts together to take advantage of that, etc

 

[Slip de Garcon]

You see, I put all my trade routes in one city and try and get Great Zimbabwe there. It becomes an absolute magnet for spies trying to siphon funds.

One spy on the commercial hub, and if I'm doing really well one in an adjacent district as a back up and killing enemy spies is like shooting fish in a barrel.

 

[Klinn]

So optimal district placement is hardly what I would call "obvious" or even "intuitive".

In my experience AI spies almost always go after the city center, the IZ, or the space port. Of course the latter is only relevant if you're going after a SV. In that case I just leave two hexes around the city center to plant those districts in the future. Then a single defensive spy covers all three primary targets. Seems easy to me.

Any of the other possible attacks by spies happen so infrequently and do such inconsequential damage to your progress that they're not worth worrying about. Although I haven't seen an AI bust one my dams yet. That might be cool.

I find I'm much more likely to have to repair districts due to blizzards or tornadoes than spy operations.

 

[comatosedragon]

I kind of ignore the espionage game, TBH. (Plus spies take way too long to build).
I still win consistently on Immortal, it just takes more turns. I have not been a fan of espionage since the system in IV:BtS.

 

[Codeblue009]

Uh. Not sure where to start.

One, you're arguing about an abstraction. From a gameplay perspective, the number of spies seems fine (and is already tedious). Total protection is an impossibility and fantasy.

Two, There are policies that help with general spy defense.

Three, FBI has nothing to do with espionage. They investigate federal crimes (hence the name), which is why they have offices all over.

FBI has a counter intelligence division and they arrest foreign spies.

 

[kb27787]

If SP, just get Great Zimbabwe, or just have one single city where you put all your routes in. Get a commercial hub adjacent to another district or 2 and set all your spies there (such that if one of them gets all excited at catching one and quickly comes back to report: "Daddy, look what I caught? Aren't you proud of me?" your commercial hub is still protected in the meanwhile). Due to decision weighting I've yet to see AI try anything else except siphon funds. If the gold income is not high enough they will try all assortments of other tricks (stealing great works, neutralizing governors, etc.)

Done correctly, this becomes a great way of leveling your spies (send them overseas to do whatever once they reach max level in order to let others level up) and also of catching enemy spies to deal them a permanent blow. If their spies are all in this city then that means their lands are completely vulnerable to yours.

 

[Slip de Garcon]

If SP, just get Great Zimbabwe, or just have one single city where you put all your routes in. Get a commercial hub adjacent to another district or 2 and set all your spies there (such that if one of them gets all excited at catching one and quickly comes back to report: "Daddy, look what I caught? Aren't you proud of me?" your commercial hub is still protected in the meanwhile). Due to decision weighting I've yet to see AI try anything else except siphon funds. If the gold income is not high enough they will try all assortments of other tricks (stealing great works, neutralizing governors, etc.)

Just as I said above. In one game I caught 20+ spies and killed dozens this way.

 

[TomKQT]

I personaly use spies almost exclusivelly for offense (first stealing gold to give them promotions, then typically removing governors, reducing envoys, damaging industrial zones, even - mostly for fun - creating barbarians from neighbourhoods).
Thinking about it, I typically use a spy for defence when I "have to" pick that promotion that gives all other spies +1 level if this one if in my own territory. Such a spy (unless he is my first one) would often protect the commercial hub that the enemies seem to target the most.

A part of the reason why I don't use spies for defence is that at the begging I like to promote them and you kinda need to be offensive for that - yes, they get a promotion when they capture an anemy spy, but this is too unreliable (will a spy attack that particular district?). And even when fully promoted, I see very little motivation to use them for defence, because in my opinion (I agree with the people saying something similar in this thread) protecting only one district (and maybe some "random" adjacent ones) is too limited. Given how few spies you can have and how many cities you should have, I think that a spy defendeing the whole city would not be overpowered.

Maybe it could work like this - you still choose a particular district and the spy is fully effective in that tile (or even gets some defense bonus), but he is somehow effective in a radius (6 tiles?), with lower strength every tile distance away (falloff).

 

[Bibor]

To me, Espionage is hopelessly weighted in favor of the attacker. You only have a small number of spies available to you. Defensively, you have to guard ALL of your cities, each of which could have as many as ten targets that need to be defended. You could easily use up your entire allotment of spies guarding just ONE city. Which means that the rest of the nation is wide open to infiltration from enemy spies.

The problem seems to be that some espionage missions are just so much more offensive than others. I wouldn't mind the AI getting eurekas off me as much I hate siphoning funds and sabotage. This should pretty much automatically lead to either war or a severe diplomatic spat. Oh, and you shouldn't be able to perform most missions on your allies.

 

[Victoria]

Although I haven't seen an AI bust one my dams yet. That might be cool.

Been there myself, spent 50 turns busting dams for fun... until it wasn’t fun any longer. It is not a bad thing to do with a spy and if Eleanor based it can help but not as much as in other ways. It is just a general chaos thing and there are better things to do.

This should pretty much automatically lead to either war or a severe diplomatic spat.

I disagree, spies are often caught in real life but proof and public outcry are rare. Spies are just a standard part of life for governments, the punishment is in the capture/killing of them. Capture in-game is often worse than death but regardless spies are not cheap, one expects return on investment. Thank god their costs do not keep escalating with each one lost.

Killing envoys and removing governors are both very powerful. If you can get a level 4 cat burglar it can also be very strong. For one city challenges they can be invaluable, especially for science victories. Defensive great zim spies are a must and also a honey trap but it is a lot of investment. Having a quartermaster (or even more than 1) can significantly help offensive operations and is something I will take early unless in a victory rush. Catherine is highly underrated when it comes to spies. You can end up suze of every CS pretty easily and also pretty much anything else. Linguist is a very underrated promo, will take it when I can.

 

[Bibor]

I disagree, spies are often caught in real life but proof and public outcry are rare.

A real-life equivalent of some civ6 spy missions would be if a foreign spy would blow up the Baikonur Cosmodrome, Silicon Valley or the Three Gorges Dam. I'm not sure in what scenario this doesn't lead to war, even in 2019.

As I said, some mission types shouldn't be available to allies. They can mess with city states, siphon funds or steal research to their hearts desire.

 

[Victoria]

Dam. I'm not sure in what scenario this doesn't lead to war, even in 2019.

When the French blew up the Rainbow warrior, killing an innocent and were caught, proven in court to have done so the caught spies were imprisoned in luxury on a French island for a year before arriving home to a heroes welcome.
Do not fantasise for a minute that the act of a spy destroying a dam would cause a war... unless it was a weak country with no nukes like Fiji attacking a superpower like America. Nukes also add complexity, would America attack France if they blew up the hoover dam?
No, they would get a jolly good talking to, embargoes, and so forth.