I will beat standard Deity by conquest once...With your advice:)

Oxford is terrible without PHI, when going for cannons and similar outbreak units ;)
Population can be used for GPs to do bulbs & trade missions (yup 1 great merchant would be very nice) and overall preparing cities for war rather than 200h buildings.

Apo hammer buildings are very useful, temples are good whips cos they give back the whip anger with +1 happy.

Not sure why you keep saying no horsies Oo
They were *always* there, if somebody said otherwise they are wrong :)
They are not expensive to trade for.
 
Oxford is terrible without PHI, when going for cannons and similar outbreak units ;)
Population can be used for GPs to do bulbs & trade missions (yup 1 great merchant would be very nice) and overall preparing cities for war rather than 200h buildings.

Apo hammer buildings are very useful, temples are good whips cos they give back the whip anger with +1 happy.

Not sure why you keep saying no horsies Oo
They were *always* there, if somebody said otherwise they are wrong :)
They are not expensive to trade for.

There are no horses since Egypt still refuses to talk %) And I am not sure whether hi will do after 10-15 turns. :crazyeye:


Session 18.

Turn 121, 150 AD. Canceled calms to Isa.

Turn 122, 175 AD. Spy was caught in Yaro. Well...It looks like Hanny. Started building some monasteries for hammers. Traded Music+Copmas to Alex for Feud+40 gold.

Turn 123, 200 AD. GS borned in Yeka. Bulbed lib. Sill need to research it for 2-3 turns. But now I can trade for machinery if necessary. Traded to Isa compass for 140 gold and revolting to Caste System. Traded to Zara Philo+130 gold for Machinery. Only Hanny and Hyana have engeneering. Started farming towards Yaro. Need destroy a village and cottage. Unfortunately Hanny doesn't have farm hear his borders. Also he dropped to cautios.

Turn 124, 225 AD. Did some resourse trade. Renewed some deals.Turn 125, 250 AD. Hanny has guild and research banking. He needs only 2 turns. And he is pleased again.

I would stop here. There some alternatives from going straight to bulb steel, or at least chemistry. Questions.


1) There is an option to bribe Hanny against Zara. It will cost Gunpower, Paper and Philo. It will stop Hanny a little bit from teching. It will give -1 to his relations with Hyana. And may be he will bribe Egypt. On the other everyone will have Paper/Philo after that. In some sense it is so tempting. But on the other hand may be Hanny can win easily and capitulate Zara. But again, on the other hand Zara is plotting for some time, hence probably he has some army.

2) What should I build in Moscow?...In the other cities I am building temples/monasteries. May be university in Moscow Or just research/welth? Or may
be some muskets and catas?

3) Also now it is time to decide the tech path. Whether Engeneering+Chemistry (14 turns) or Nationalism (10 turns). Probably I have time to tech both them (I mean I hope I have around 15 turns before Edu is researched by AI).

Cat250AD_land.JPG
 

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Session 19.

Turn 125, 250 AD. Probably it was a good idea to switch to Hinduism.

Turn 126, 275 AD. Cities build monasteris. Moscow build catapult. Then I will build a couple of elephants after the stable.

Turn 127, 300 AD. Moscow started stable. Still no trades and other things. Hyana got Education...I sold Paper to Hanny for 190 gold for some trade relations.

Turn 128, 325 AD. Hanny will finish Edu in 5 turns. Started to chop one forest to Yakust. Renewed deal with Zara and got +1 gpt. Gave Paper to Isa for trade Embargo by accident...I just wanted to check whether she will do it and misclicked.

Turn 129, 350 AD. In Apostolic Palace I got voting. There were three choices. Trade embargo against Zara, stop war against Alex and stop war against Isa. I choosed traded embargo and voted no. Moscow finished stable and started war elephant. At least I will get troops with 5 exp. Hyana colpeted Angor Wat and Notre Dam. I will get some gold. St. Petersburg will put now one hammper into some troops for easier whipping later. Ramesses still doesn't want to talk. And it looks like I need go for Lib now. What should I take?

Only one question. But very very improtant and I really need some advice here.

1) What should I take from Lib? Chemistry? And then selftech Steel?...

Cat350AD_tech_lib.JPG
 

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Okay, lets continue our Deity game.
May be some of you think that henceforth the game can be easily won. But I am not so sure...at least I will describe in detalis before I cap 2-3 AIs.

Also I want to remind this video of AZ where he did lib Steel and cannon war. So far, it was only one game with such type of war, but it was won very easily.

Going back to our game we have

Session 20.

Turn 129, 350 AD. It looks like I have no choise and have to lib Chemistry. So, let's do it! Decided to build university in Moscow.

Turn 130, 375 AD. I need 13 turns (even should be less to tech Steel). Eventually I chopped jungle on the elephants...Well...another small mistake. I should did it long time ago. Also let's do some fun and bribe Hanny against Zara...Hanny is teching Edu and Zara is plotting. So, I hope Zara should have enough forces. It costs Philo+Edu and 115 gold.
Cat375AD_libwin.JPG



Cat375AD_warHanny.JPG


Turn 131, 400 AD. Sold Iron to Zara for Fish and 1 gpt.
Cat400AD_Zaratroops.JPG



Turn 132, 425 AD. Isa and Alex made peace. Hyana had Liberalism too. Lets do even more fun! May be Hanny will bribe someone.
Cat425AD_IsaWar.JPG



Turn 133, 450 AD. Someone bribed into the war...Also Moscow finished university and started treb. Great Merchant will be ready in 2 turns.
Cat450AD_newwars.JPG



Turn 134, 475 AD. Hyana has 3 horses. But he will not trade them since he doesn't like me. I easily can change it. However now I want to try the cannon war. Isa is a sweet target with some building for gold in Madrid and Barcelona. I will stop here. Need to renew some resourses deals. Steel should be finished in 8-9 turns, considering turn of anarchy.

Any comments?...May be suggestion?...:)

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Well, it looks good. At this point in the game, you don't really need new buildings. All those monasteries and temples take a long time to pay back. Forge and Barracks really is enough. I would rather build some wealth and get Steel a few turns earlier. Now you have almost no gold and need to build a few Trebs for upgrades. Great Merchant soon is nice though.

I see you are still building mines, why? You can still put more farms. And after you farmed all the tiles, you could build windmills, much better.

Some micro stuff here and there. Can sell a few resources, maybe stone for 8 gold. Could upgrade 10 Trebs, whip troops and go for Isa. Nice cities and will capitulate quickly. Conquest gold to reach Grenadiers.

Trading for Nationalism would be great, just draft Muskets and attack. But everyone is behind now so that's good aswell.
 
Well, it looks good. At this point in the game, you don't really need new buildings. All those monasteries and temples take a long time to pay back. Forge and Barracks really is enough. I would rather build some wealth and get Steel a few turns earlier. Now you have almost no gold and need to build a few Trebs for upgrades. Great Merchant soon is nice though.

I see you are still building mines, why? You can still put more farms. And after you farmed all the tiles, you could build windmills, much better.

Some micro stuff here and there. Can sell a few resources, maybe stone for 8 gold. Could upgrade 10 Trebs, whip troops and go for Isa. Nice cities and will capitulate quickly. Conquest gold to reach Grenadiers.

Trading for Nationalism would be great, just draft Muskets and attack. But everyone is behind now so that's good aswell.

Thank you for your comment. Yes, I know that monasteries and temples require some time for payback, but anyway I will try them. And also they plus mines and workshops will allow to produce a unit around every 3 turns which is around the same as whipping but should be better for econonmy in general. Also I am hoping to get guilds very soon. So, I want to whip asap around 3-4 of my cities and other should produce raw hammers. May be it is not the most effecient...but in some it is better if something will go wrong :)

Also Isa sent some troops to Hanny. Now she is having very few troops :)

Drafting is good, but I am not sure how good it would be here. Also it would require anarchy for switching and require to stop bureocracy. Well...I think I will check from this save after I finish the game. I think that that game is about finishing since very soon it will not require so many details. :)

Session 21.

Turn 134, 475 AD. Did some micro in Yakutsk to get monastery one turn faster. Renewed some trades and sold stone to Isa for 6 gold since Ramesses still doesn't want to talk. Hence, no 8 gpt for stone from him.

Turn 135, 500 AD. Asked for 50 gold from Alex, I need some gold to keep 100% Research. He gave me since last time I asked him around turn 98.
This is another thing why it is good to log your games by hand...%) Put some cities into wealth since I want my GM reach in time the city with Temple of Arthemis.

Turn 136, 520 AD. Inca got Nationalism. Hanny has a two front war and it is good. Even he is attacking...So far, Isa and Zara have some defence. GM was born in St. Petersburg. I think it is time to revolt to Slavery+Theocracy since I don't have enough land to work...So, I could whip something. However, I will keep Bureocracy since I have pretty good capital. And Theocracy would allow 5 exp units.

Turn 137, 540 AD. Some of Hanny's troops were broken at Zara's defence and now I can bribe Zara to make peace with Hanny, but I will not. Also Isa doesn't have a big stack. Steel will be in 6 turns. Resold Dye to Alex and got another +1 to gpt. Some land and cities sizes.
Cat540AD_land.JPG


Turn 138, 560 AD.
Moscow is building Trebs in 2 turns, pretty nice. Also I was thinking to birbe Alex to make peace with Zara...And may be try to go into war with Egypt. But he wants too much for peace.
Cat560AD_GM.JPG





Turn 139, 580 AD. I can start war against Zara. Well...I chosed none of these options. Started building some troops. In most places it takes 3-4 turns. Probably, I even don't need to whip in these cities?...E.g., Novgorod and Rostov. Zara and Isa have Nationalism. Hanny dropped to cautios.
Cat580AD_voting.JPG


Turn 140, 600 AD. Granary was desroyed in Yaro by spies...It should be Hanny. Zara has pretty safe position and this is a good news. Hanny is
researching Nationalism.

Turn 141, 620 AD. Yaro whipped granary. Now I will start whip heavily some cities. And other cities will be workshopped.

Turn 142, 640 AD. Hanny is reseacrhing constituion. Will do it in 6 turns. The best GNP in ~800 mine is only ~400 and I have place 4. I wonder who has so much...I guess Hyana. Hanny is having around the same as me. Hyana got Gunpowder. I will have Steel next turn. 660 AD looks not bad for it.
.
Cat640AD_demo.JPG



Some thoughs and plans...I am thinking to attack Isa and take most of her cities and then whip it. Meanwhile I will try to get grenadiers. Probably I can take Nationalism when capitulate her. Another option is Hannybal, but he can peace vassal and so on. I need just more land with food. Marble from Isa also would be good. And 11-12 cities should be enough for army against Hanny.

New question.

1) How big army should I build? Around 12 cannons and 12 muskets/elephants/macemen? So, I can attack Salamanca immediately and go to Barcelona with the second stack.

P.S.
Also in 580 AD Spain lost the horse city to Hanny. Probably I should bribe him for peace soon...By some reason I missed it.
 

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Thank you for your comment. Yes, I know that monasteries and temples require some time for payback, but anyway I will try them. And also they plus mines and workshops will allow to produce a unit around every 3 turns which is around the same as whipping but should be better for econonmy in general. Also I am hoping to get guilds very soon. So, I want to whip asap around 3-4 of my cities and other should produce raw hammers. May be it is not the most effecient...but in some it is better if something will go wrong :)

I don't know if you are a math kind of guy (I am really not), but you can just calculate some things to understand the tile values more clearly.

Spoiler :
This is from your save, but I took some farms from another city to make it more pretty.

Civ4ScreenShot0392_zpstn5zwhqw.jpg


This is the alternate universe, where workers built two farms instead of two workshops (we can ignore the bottom workshop).

Civ4ScreenShot0393_zpsotljkkug.jpg


Comparison for the next 10 turns:

nimetn_zpsr40tlfb0.png


The part in the "real" game is very straighforward. You win 1:food: per turn and after the :hammers:-overflow on the first turn you make 18 base :hammers: per turn which makes it 22:hammers:/pt after forge.

In the alternate universe calculating yield is not that simple, as you need to take both growing and whipping into account. On turn 145 you make enough food to grow to size 11 on turn 146, which is also when you also 2-pop whip back to size 9 and hence stop working the farmed plain. 2-pop whip generates 2*30*1,25 :hammers: with a forge, but I think due to rounding it gives only 74 :hammers: (checked this afterwards and I'm wrong, it gives 75:hammers: like it should). Rest is straightforward, grow back to size 10 and work the farmed plains again.

So, whipping route in this case wins 14:food: and 6:hammers: during those 10 turns. You can convert :food:->:hammers: somewhat reliably considering the city size, meaning how many food do you need to grow which in this case is 40:food: half of which is done by granary. So one size here equals roughly 20:food: and one size always equals 30:hammers: via whip. 1:food:=1,5:hammers:, meaning working farms and whipping wins 27:hammers: during 10 turns compared to working workshops. So a roughly 10% difference.

Note I ignored :commerce: altogether, since there shouldn't be a big difference, although working more river tiles is slightly better.

Once you understand that 1:food: really is significantly better than 1:hammers:, choosing the correct improvements becomes easy and automatic for you. You don't need to do math or do time consuming "micro" anymore.


I also agree with Lain's point considering AP-buildings. They offer pretty good bang for the buck, so building them is tempting. Is there something better? It's possible. Reaching a position where you can start the attack two turns earlier leads to you capturing all the good stuff two turns earlier, etc. Snowball effect. My advice would be to put the focus on what you really need to do and just do it, as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Drafting is good, but I am not sure how good it would be here. Also it would require anarchy for switching and require to stop bureocracy. Well...I think I will check from this save after I finish the game. I think that that game is about finishing since very soon it will not require so many details.
You don't have nationalism, like you say in your next paragraph. :) When you have nat though, I'd lean towards switching if your plan is to win via war asap. You know them deity AIs can have some really scary stacks out there...

Some thoughs and plans...I am thinking to attack Isa and take most of her cities and then whip it. Meanwhile I will try to get grenadiers. Probably I can take Nationalism when capitulate her. Another option is Hannybal, but he can peace vassal and so on. I need just more land with food. Marble from Isa also would be good. And 11-12 cities should be enough for army against Hanny.

Grens are a counter to rifles, and nobody is close to rifles so it doesn't feel like the best plan to me. Hannibal claims to have two horses but won't trade them at cautious. If you can get him to pleased you can get your horsie and build cuirs. Double speed unit, requires tech that gets you closer to cossacks etc.

1) How big army should I build? Around 12 cannons and 12 muskets/elephants/macemen? So, I can attack Salamanca immediately and go to Barcelona with the second stack.
Hard to say as I can't see what she has, but probably she is so weak right now that like 12+12 is enough. Maybe you don't need that many even. Don't think Salamanca is worth much so I'd just go for the good cities.

P.S.
Also in 580 AD Spain lost the horse city to Hanny. Probably I should bribe him for peace soon...By some reason I missed it.
Yes, definitely get them to peace before she is capitulated as that would force you to renew your plan.
 
Hi, just wanted to let you know that I have enjoyed this thread and I hope you find the time to continue
 
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