I wish the mod did "this" because it's like that in real life.

[Bryan317]

For lack of a better title... I'd like to open a thread that can let us all vent our frustrations about something we wish the VP mod included/changed because they think it's a more realistic change. This is not intended to insult or beg the devs for change. This mod has brought us closer to real life simulation than any other civ game. They are also looking at this game in other ways than realism. They are making a balanced masterpiece. In fact, the second goal of this thread should be to friendly discuss why your realistic suggestion may not work in gameplay and will destroy balance mechanics. But still... you wish something was more real? It kills the role playing? Then comment...make your arguement on how you could adjust the other mechanics to make your change work. I'll admit I'm not programmer. These are just wishes.

A few off the top of my head, I'll think of more myself.

Castles... why am I building them in 1965 to get to Arsenals? I have an Arsenal in Detroit where I actually live. No castles... That I'm aware of. Would be nice if they actually became obsolete and you only received benefits from them if you built them early.
I could probably throw Walls into this too. Is this impossible?? Can buildings be blocked after a tech is researched?

Courthouses... ok they are a huge mechanic to conquest games and Puppet vs. annex (especially early game). But in real life doesn't every city have a courthouse? Even if they weren't forcefully taken by another country? Maybe you could argue that every modern country in the world is technically occupied from its native settlers. But C'mon. And are courthouses the real life magic that stops all that mass unhappiness from being occupied? I think a combination of Police Stations and Courthouses perhaps. Which would lead me to go on that that unhappiness is being a little nerfed. And you don't have any of these buildings when you're taking over cities with your warriors and archers. Now I've killed the conquest mechanics lol

 

[Drakarska]

Sure, I'll chime in. BTW, great mod, and I'm enjoying all the work and love that got put into this. But, there are some things that drive me nuts, especially since I play Deity/Marathon games.

1) Courthouses; Agree with Bryan above. I get that they are a mechanic used in conquests, but IMO, they are a key building in any city, and should be available as such. Especially to reduce some of the negative aspects of city management.

2) Diplo; This is still a major headache for me. Spend half the game getting good trade relations, besties, and other goody relations stuff, only to take a major denouncement hit when I get attacked and defend myself. The irony- If Monty is in the game, he's usually the first one to declare me a warmonger... Monty.. That's just rich. There should be some modifiers from past diplo status, as well as the current situation at hand before getting denounced, but I'm not sure of what type of modding would be needed for that.

3) Espionage; This one frustrates the cream filling out of my Twinkies of enjoyment. It doesn't matter how much defensive buildings and Wonders I have, as baddie spies get through on an 80-90% regularity. maybe come up with a counter-espionage pool to use for specific defense.

4) AI expansion; So, I'm usually playing huge/mara maps with 22 civs and 10-12 CS's. The AI refuses to expand, or even pop CB's to a 3 rad, beyond 4-6 cities. I get costs involved and everything, but what's the point of having a massive empire that's the envy of the known world if your only going to have a few cities? Maybe reduce city maintenance costs dependent on speed/map size, or come up with some new buildings that reduce it, in order to get the AI to be a little braver.

5) AI city specialization; This one puzzles me. I usually set up at least 1 city (depending on map and location) as a sci city, 1 for gold, and so on. Why doesn't the AI do something similar? Especially on Deity? It has boo koo bonuses to start with, and it's kind of disappointing to be way out in the tech lead before even hitting the Renaissance.

Just a few thoughts. I get that the Epic Mod Crew is limited by the framework of what they have to work with, and I really enjoy the mod as a whole, but there are still just a few Gremlins that need to be spanked back into oblivion.

Anyways, the Mod Team has done a fantastic job. If it hadn't been for this, I probably would have just left this game sitting in my library collecting dust and stayed playing BTS . Thanks Folks, and here's hoping you keep up the awesome work.

Drak.

 

[Bryan317]

Good points! Diplomacy is a big one for me too. I've been a warmonger since civ2. I appreciate how this mod has made war monger games challenging right up til the end. It was definitely necessary to make other civilizations completely uncooperative when you own half the land. (In fact I'm a fan of the We Know You're Going to Win modifier) But I agree it would be nice to see you be able to get some modifiers for being friendly for long periods of time. And definitely a little bit more positive bonus for similar ideologies. (Sure I know I wiped out those Freedom punks. But it was for the Motherland) wink* wink*

Just making conversation on your 4) point. We are similar play setups but I'm on Immortal, maxing CS as well. I might be ready for Diety. I feel the world as a whole is behind on technology. You are definitely removing an aspect to the game IMO with low CS. Statecraft takes a hit. But an AI will usually take a massive lead with it. I'm dealing with that now as Austria immediately went close to 1000 points ahead. It's been an uphill battle dealing with that. And by 1965 it's going to take me invading (and occupying/razing) to stop her from winning. The map has beautifully protected her with mountain ranges and we've only had a few skirmishes over time. She's nuked me. Been a fun game

 

[Bascule2000]

Pre-modern warmonger penalties. I don't think medieval leaders gave a stuff about warmongers on another continent. They probably didn't care about warmonger neighbours either, as long as the warmongers were attacking someone else.

 

[Gidoza]

Bryan - Just saying that this thread with your notes about Castles as a prerequisite and Courthouses in every city made me smile. Seems like a fun thread for theoretical discussion that might come up with actual changes, but is ultimately good healthy fun, and I think that's a great idea and the best one.

 

[andersw]

For lack of a better title... I'd like to open a thread that can let us all vent our frustrations about something we wish the VP mod included/changed because they think it's a more realistic change. This is not intended to insult or beg the devs for change. This mod has brought us closer to real life simulation than any other civ game. They are also looking at this game in other ways than realism. They are making a balanced masterpiece. In fact, the second goal of this thread should be to friendly discuss why your realistic suggestion may not work in gameplay and will destroy balance mechanics. But still... you wish something was more real? It kills the role playing? Then comment...make your arguement on how you could adjust the other mechanics to make your change work. I'll admit I'm not programmer. These are just wishes.

A few off the top of my head, I'll think of more myself.

Castles... why am I building them in 1965 to get to Arsenals? I have an Arsenal in Detroit where I actually live. No castles... That I'm aware of. Would be nice if they actually became obsolete and you only received benefits from them if you built them early.
I could probably throw Walls into this too. Is this impossible?? Can buildings be blocked after a tech is researched?

Courthouses... ok they are a huge mechanic to conquest games and Puppet vs. annex (especially early game). But in real life doesn't every city have a courthouse? Even if they weren't forcefully taken by another country? Maybe you could argue that every modern country in the world is technically occupied from its native settlers. But C'mon. And are courthouses the real life magic that stops all that mass unhappiness from being occupied? I think a combination of Police Stations and Courthouses perhaps. Which would lead me to go on that that unhappiness is being a little nerfed. And you don't have any of these buildings when you're taking over cities with your warriors and archers. Now I've killed the conquest mechanics lol

I suppose the main goal is to make use of BNW and make it more balanced with a better AI.
More realism is a separate project.

 

[pineappledan]

Any mounted unit taking any damage prior to medieval should result in That unit becoming an on-foot unit. Have you tried riding a horse without spurs and stirrups? Have you tried riding a horse without spurs and stirrups with an arrow in your ribs?

 

[kenneth1221]

Any mounted unit taking any damage prior to medieval should result in That unit becoming an on-foot unit. Have you tried riding a horse without spurs and stirrups? Have you tried riding a horse without spurs and stirrups with an arrow in your ribs?

Damage to mounted units should only be done in increments of 25/34/50, to represent each horse in the unit graphic dying. (Don't remember exact number of horses.)

 

[Bryan317]

I'd like to see Musket Men do a Low Melee attack. Even though the mod has made the transition to gunpowder WAY better than vanilla civ, I think the Tercio becomes overused and I think more realisticly in our world it was the Musketman. The Mod changed the unit dynamics a lot and I think the fusilier is made to represent the prevalent units during Napoleonic and American Revolutionary War times. So they a pretty spot on. Its the over use of the Terico I guess is what I find a bit off. (I'm not belittling this unit! This was a genius addition!) A weak melee attack for the Musketmen that will never get Drill or Shock will just allow that final city blow to be a musketman. Shouldn't be too game-changing and then when they upgrade they lose the melee. I just think it would be a more realistic change to help the transition to gunpowder. Since there is no unit I can think of that can shoot an melee there must be a reason they haven't tried it. Programming the AI to deal with a unit that does both is probably difficult. And would lead to the AI being stupid.

 

[Bryan317]

Pre-modern warmonger penalties. I don't think medieval leaders gave a stuff about warmongers on another continent. They probably didn't care about warmonger neighbours either, as long as the warmongers were attacking someone else.

It kinda does this now doesn't it? I don't notice much warmonger penalties from civilizations I haven't met yet. And honestly I've let some of my diplomacy issues go... the AI used to be WAY too passive when you where on a Domination landslide. Now they resist almost accordingly.

 

[Bascule2000]

Since there is no unit I can think of that can shoot an melee

Impis do that

 

[Bascule2000]

It kinda does this now doesn't it? I don't notice much warmonger penalties from civilizations I haven't met yet.

Apologies, I was being hyperbolic. I usually play large Pangea, and meant distant Civs that could never by affected by my wars.

And honestly I've let some of my diplomacy issues go... the AI used to be WAY too passive when you where on a Domination landslide. Now they resist almost accordingly.

My history isn't great; when did countries start ganging up against an aggressor? Napoleonic times maybe? It doesn't seem right to happen in early eras to me.

 

[Bryan317]

My history isn't great; when did countries start ganging up against an aggressor? Napoleonic times maybe? It doesn't seem right to happen in early eras to me.

Agreed. However a Pangaea game is very different. And the AI can be a bit suicidal sometimes. On games with different continents there can be a lot of mock wars. You're technically at War but the AI doesn't really mount an attack against you because it's too far away/ocean. These are basically harmless. But playing Pangea you may have to deal with them actually attacking more if they've got open borders straight to you.

 

[Drakarska]

It's kind of subjective though, based on map size/speed/etc. I've literally been DOW'd by multiple civ's, and as soon as I meet a new civ, I'm getting denounced as a warmonger. That really doesn't make any sense to me, as I'm thinking "wait, we just met, I'm the one getting attacked, and I'm the warmonger?"

Oh, and I meant to add another observation,
Trade; Ok, I'm playing as Indonesia, I have a global monopoly on my unique Lux's, and it's only worth 4-5gp/turn? I noticed this on my last update, that almost all trade agreements can only net you that amount ( there have been an occasion exception to this) no matter what the Lux is. Anyone else seeing this?

 

[Amask]

Roads magically don't work in enemy lands. I have hated this for decades. Civ VI is a pile of garbage but I like its implementation of roads (automatically built by trade units, can be built manually later in the game, and they work just the same in enemy lands).

 

[Patine]

Roads magically don't work in enemy lands. I have hated this for decades. Civ VI is a pile of garbage but I like its implementation of roads (automatically built by trade units, can be built manually later in the game, and they work just the same in enemy lands).

Unless the enemy who controls the territory is actively using artillery or archers to interdict enemy movement, has sappers, bandit militia, and/or harassing/skirmishing/guerilla operations, and/or is destroying their own roads and bridges as "scorched earth," this rule is not an improvement in realism, but a detriment and hit to it, I have to say. Passive and effortless removal of road bonuses to enemy units in one's home territory, with no active mechanism or tactics in play, just because of a state of war, is nonsense and utter fantasy, not "realism."

 

[usadefcon1]

Roads magically don't work in enemy lands. I have hated this for decades. Civ VI is a pile of garbage but I like its implementation of roads (automatically built by trade units, can be built manually later in the game, and they work just the same in enemy lands).

There is a "Caravans Build Roads" mod on Steam

 

[th3f00l]

Things I hate in civilization:

1) Planes take damage from ground infantry. (i'm not talking about anti aircraft gun)
2) Wooden Ships can fight against modern iron ships. (basically this is a constant criticism. In game, war units from eras before Industrial did not seem as weak as they actually are.)
3) And the WORST thing ever in this game is: The AI ALWAYS will solve problems with you with war declaration. Does matter if you are partners for century or fight against a common enemy, they will always betray you.

 

[Stalker0]

**Sarcasm**

For realism sake, all military units prior to World War II era should lose ~20 hp a round, to account for the real killer in war.....disease.

Also the upgrade system. What, do I have immortal generals or something that can keep all of that experience? Units should be constantly dismantled and remade.

Maintenance costs gold. What...I just melt it down and use it to patch the holes in my walls? Maintenance should cost hammers.

Victory conditions. Lets be real, the only way to win the world....is to take it! Domination should be the only way to win Civ, everything else is completely unrealistic.

 

[Recursive]

From TVTropes, on the Civilization series:

"Acceptable Breaks from Reality: Many, as a game which truly approximated all the headaches of running an Empire would only be interesting to professors, extremely hardcore gamers, and megalomaniacs."