ICS still not gone

[Matrix]

ICS: Infinite City Sprawl. Build as much cities as you can, doesn't matter how close to each other they are.

That used to be very lucrative in Civ2 because for one population you get two back when you build a city (the center square plus the one the first/only population uses).

But in Civ3 it's still very handy even though this advantage is gone: in the early days when cities don't become bigger than 6, why not fill up the squares not used by cities with other cities? That way you also get commerce and production from those previously unused squares. And when you're able to have metropolises, you just abandon all those extra cities.

The extra corruption you get because of more cities - That happens, doesn't it? - does not counter-balance it.

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Well, I don't like ICS! Even though I'm aware of this advantage, I just can't get it over my heart to use it. Is it me or is it actually also a bug (or rather imperfection ) that this advantage even exists? You can see clearly the computer doesn't take use of this.

I myself always try to get as close to the Perfect City Grid as possible:

Red are cities. This way you only have one square overlap with other cities per city (dark green).

 

[joycem10]

Matrix, im the same way. it would drive me crazy to see 5 cities jammed into an area that i know should only hold 2. i also try to get the "perfect city grid".

there are alot of things you can do in this game to increase your score but which make it less fun for me to play. milking being the best example. ICS is one of these.

 

[BCLG100]

thats what i like to use but if you are on an archi-thingy like the last GOTM you dont have much space so you need to do ICS

 

[Matrix]

(What I forgot to mention...)
I think it can easily dealt with.

For example: increase the corruption for each square a city radius overlaps with another city radius. Would that give any negative effect?

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Matrix: i tried them all, and I still like the ideal one best.... and it really is a pity that ICS is more sucessfull. I do not think an overlap penatly would be a problem!

 

[SirJethro]

Originally posted by Matrix
(What I forgot to mention...)
I think it can easily dealt with.

For example: increase the corruption for each square a city radius overlaps with another city radius. Would that give any negative effect?

Close. I don't like using corruption because you already get a corruption penalty for making extra cities (which ICS allows). I like the idea of adding a multiplier to pollution: increase pollution by the percentage of tiles that overlap (so if 50% of tiles overlap, the city will get pollution 50% faster).

 

[Cunobelin Of Hippo]

I doubt ICS will be as effective in multiplayer. ICSing is not synonymous with 'strong defenses', and a good 'perfection' human player will be able to punch right through the mess of cities with just a small band of units in a well timed strike. This is in the ancient era of course - once their core group of cities is done churning out settlers it could be an entirely different situation.

 

[Kemal]

ICS may be a very usefull technique but it looks sooooo ugly on your map that I will never even consider using it. Sometimes it is necessary to have some overlap but overall I prefer having some artistic value to my kingdom.

 

[BCLG100]

it adds a lot to your score doesnt it?

 

[ABnormsol]

Sorry folks, I just don't understand this beef with ICS.

It seems natural for me in the early game.

Small cities can only work a few squares. Your cultural influence is small.

Why would you establish something far outside (Square or two) your influence?

It seems realistic historically. Cities not just just Civs and Culture rise, fall, die and sometimes are reborn.

Maybe I am missing some outragous inconsistancy in the playability. That would be different. (Sort of like building Sandbags across the board on C&C)

The game allows you to do it for some reason. The design made a choice of atleast 1 square not two.

Please share.

I am curious to other thoughts.

 

[BCLG100]

it is also good for cities where corruption and waste are a big problem you can build cities inbetween there which would normally only goto waste and food

 

[sabo]

Originally posted by Kemal
ICS may be a very usefull technique but it looks sooooo ugly on your map that I will never even consider using it. Sometimes it is necessary to have some overlap but overall I prefer having some artistic value to my kingdom.

Do you do landscaping in your cities too Kemal??

 

[chiefpaco]

The other problem with ICS is that 2 cities can easily out-culture 1. Just by increasing corruption (or unhappiness), this problem does not go away. Civ A with twice the city density can outculture CivB.

 

[ABnormsol]

Originally posted by chiefpaco
The other problem with ICS is that 2 cities can easily out-culture 1. Just by increasing corruption (or unhappiness), this problem does not go away. Civ A with twice the city density can outculture CivB.

This maybe realistic.

Cities ARE cultural centers (Or hopefully). Exchange of ideas and thoughts and such.

 

[wohmongarinf00l]

those who are looking for realism should wait for multiplayer where the different combatants are on somewhat level playing field. as it is, the AI has some fixed bonuses that the human player does not have. take emperor and deity for example, all the AI cities grow a lot faster than yours and therefore the AI can maximise tile usage early on. how is the human player supposed to counteract this?

as a point of curiosity, do any of u who have issues with ICS play on emperor and above? if u do, do u consistently win? it is a lot less enjoyable to have to put up with extortion for the better part of the game waiting to build up an empire that can strike back in industrial times (if u are lucky). these exploits allow u to be at par with the AI early on.

 

[BCLG100]

ok back to the whole ai cheating thing which we dont really want to get on i think the general answer from all the threads started about that is the deity and emporer levels are meant to be hard and the only way to make them hard is to cheat

 

[Matrix]

Indeed: emperor and deity are ment to be hard (I don't care how), but when I see results of some players (just look at the Hall of Fame), I can only conclude it's not that much of a problem for them. Only because of ICS? I think so. In such a case it should be dealt with!

 

[Beard Rinker]

Originally posted by wohmongarinf00l
as a point of curiosity, do any of u who have issues with ICS play on emperor and above? if u do, do u consistently win?

Speaking from first hand experience emperor can be beaten consistently without using ICS style play. I'm not so sure about deity, but then I have never won at deity level.

In my games, I do have some overlap but it's usually around 3 - 5 tiles for the first few cities then little if any for the rest. I don't think it would be a stretch to have a maximum of 3 tiles overlapping and still win consistently.

Whether or not the playing field is level is a different issue to using/not using ICS style. My beef with ICS is simply that it just plain bugs me and does not appear to be within the spirit of the game.

The AI gets advantages on monarch level and above to make the game harder. A smarter AI would be a preferrable alternative for added difficulty but not a realistic one from a programming point of view.

 

[wohmongarinf00l]

Originally posted by Matrix
Indeed: emperor and deity are ment to be hard (I don't care how), but when I see results of some players (just look at the Hall of Fame), I can only conclude it's not that much of a problem for them. Only because of ICS? I think so. In such a case it should be dealt with!

i believe this is incorrect. just to make sure i went back to check on the HOF games and i can say for sure none of the high scores at monarch and above have used ICS except Aeson's game which was the first time the power of ICS was demonstrated.

 

[Aeson]

ICS definitely gives huge maps with relatively few opponents higher scoring potential. It really doesn't make the game any easier. Played right, Deity isn't too difficult to beat with nicely spaced cities. ICS isn't required, it just scores higher.