Idea for tech tree change in Industrial Era

[player1 fanatic]

The problem:
Infantry and Artillery come very early.
While this is not a problem for a player, since liberal use of Artillery can take out high defense Infantry, it is devastating for an AI, which needs to wait 6-7 techs until it gets Tanks to challenge the players.

The proposal:
Make Replaceable parts require not only Electricity, but the Steel too, so that when you get Infantry Tanks won't be too far away (around 4-5 techs).


What do you think?

 

[socralynnek]

Or put s.th. like "Early tanks" to replaceable parts or somewhere else before maybe with 10.5.2 as stats.

 

[Vizurok]

Or put s.th. like "Early tanks" to replaceable parts or somewhere else before maybe with 10.5.2 as stats.

Absulutely good idea! I always wanted to see early tanks in the game...


@Player 1: But that was World War I, immobile war, with arti and infantry, and some tank... so the early tank should have a very big cost, maybe higher than a normal tank.
Well, the AI should learn how to handle artillery much better...

 

[player1 fanatic]

Well, even with change there will be more then enough time (around 4 techs at min) to play WWI trench war.

But, it won't be too long as before to obliterate AI completly.

Also it helps to play a little bit longer with Riflemen/Cavalry combo. And makes Steel itself more useful.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Or put s.th. like "Early tanks" to replaceable parts or somewhere else before maybe with 10.5.2 as stats.

Won't work for flavor reasons.

Any Tanks need engine (combustion) and oil (refining), and that means the earliest time for tank would be combustion.



P.S.
By the way, does anybody realize that for Infantry you just need 3 advances in industrial era: Steam Engine, Electricity and RParts.

 

[Goldflash]

By the way, does anybody realize that for Infantry you just need 3 advances in industrial era: Steam Engine, Electricity and RParts.

Yup. Thats why I usually rush for it

 

[Commander Bello]

So, infantry and artillery don't come too early, the tank just comes too late.
I for my person would like to see infantry even earlier, since the time of the cavalry is just way too long (if you rushed for it). It is half the medieval age, and almost another half of the industrial age. For this long period, it is just too strong (mainly caused by its high speed)

 

[player1 fanatic]

But, there is no good way to make Tanks earlier (as I pointed out).

On the other hand, Cavalry has problems even with Riflemen, if not having artillery support (and that means RParts). So later infantry would would increase lifespan of Rifles and Cannons.

 

[Commander Bello]

Well, 1 cavalry may have problems with 1 rifle, but in the long run they are dealing quite good with them, due to their chance of retreating.
Personally, I'd see the solution in introducing current "guerillas" (which I in my modding attempts always rename to "light infantry") earlier AND giving infantry-type units the same attack/defense values (starting with the rifleman). Then they get the offensive and defensive flag, so that the AI may make use of them.

 

[player1 fanatic]

True, rilfles can be beaten with Cavarly.

That's probably one of the reasons why AI start to suffer only after Infantry becomes available.



P.S.
Also my suggestion doesn't really fix the problem.
It just makes it a problem for a shorter time (without any radical rules changes).

 

[genghis_khev]

Historically speaking (YAWN! I know!) cavalry did rule the battlefield right from the first uses back in Ancient Era, through Middle ages with heavy and light mounted Knights and much later. During Napoleonic era cavalry was absolutely vital (rifleman + cannon kinda times I guess). There were still cavalry formations during WWI (Inf + Arty) and early/mid WWII (especially in remote/hostile locations or poorer/less developed nations).

With this in mind the "doimination" of cavalry in Civ3 is understandable and somewhat accurate. The only complaint I have is like all players and the AI I too build vast quantities of cav. They could probably be more expensive (shields) to reduce the quantity of cav. Mosty armies I believe had a majority of foot troops with a much smaller contingent of cav, where as my civ armes tend to be the opposite. Mostly cav with enough rifles/inf to hold captured cities and defend my cannon/arty stacks.

The only changes I would make would be to increase the shield cost of ALL mounted units to limit their numbers. If the quantity of cav could be reduced human and AI would be reluctant to attack a city with an unsupported cav stack as losses would be too costly.

EDIT - That in mind I am not going to change this. I like lots of cav!! Just remember "The Charge of the Light Brigade" (and into the valley of death rode the 600).

 

[Jaybe]

Cavalry may have owned the OPEN battlefield but they were OWNED by any disciplined infantry in closed terrain (woods, towns/cities, or rough terrain).

player1, I am all for adding steel to RP requirement and have playing that way for several months. However, the main problem as I see it is the AI's non-use of artillery -- it's a failed concept as implemented. Get rid of it (from the game), in all of its ground manifestations!
Replace it with expensive ground units with their attack strength doubled (the higher of their attack or defense strength). I try to restrict their use to assaulting cities and other tough nuts. The AI will build them, but use them a little more indiscriminately.

I use the price of the base unit + the price of 4 contemporary bombardment units; multi-unit figures for graphics.

Examples, with "(#)" indicating defensive bombard strength:*
Ancient -- Siege Infantry (based on swordsman): cost=110, A/D=8/2(4), available with Math.
Middle -- Medieval Assault Infantry: cost=170, A/D=10/2(6), avail at Invention**
Assault Rifles: cost=235, A/D=14/6(8), avail at Nationalism
Industrial -- Assault Infantry: cost=410, A/D=20/10(12), avail at Repl. Parts
Modern -- Modern Assault Infantry (TOW): cost=460, A/D=28/14(12), avail at Space Flight; moves=1 or 2, radar
Mech Assault Infantry: cost=480, A/D=36/18(12), avail at The Laser; moves=2, radar, air defense=2

* I have changed arrival times of some of my units, and some of their costs
** Invention is a compromise with arrival of Trebuchets and Medieval Infantry

 

[player1 fanatic]

The only changes I would make would be to increase the shield cost of ALL mounted units to limit their numbers. If the quantity of cav could be reduced human and AI would be reluctant to attack a city with an unsupported cav stack as losses would be too costly.

Of course that would kill the AI, since it would still build expesive cavalry and it would still be beaten by high defense Infantry.

 

[player1 fanatic]

player1, I am all for adding steel to RP requirement and have playing that way for several months. However, the main problem as I see it is the AI's non-use of artillery -- it's a failed concept as implemented.

It nice too know that somebody tested this before.
As for land bobmardment units I pretty much agree that it's not implemented to function for AI.

Get rid of it (from the game), in all of its ground manifestations!

Well, this one is one radical way to change things and would need a lot of playtesting.

I usually try to avoid radical solutions since I prefer feel of original Civ3. But unforunately without fixing artillery AI or using radical soultion this problem can't really be fixed.

 

[Jaybe]

It nice too know that somebody tested this before.

I'm not the only one. Your tech suggestion was the same as implemented in the Rhye's of Civilization mod

 

[player1 fanatic]

Interesting

 

[dmanakho]

The problem:
Infantry and Artillery come very early.
While this is not a problem for a player, since liberal use of Artillery can take out high defense Infantry, it is devastating for an AI, which needs to wait 6-7 techs until it gets Tanks to challenge the players.

The proposal:
Make Replaceable parts require not only Electricity, but the Steel too, so that when you get Infantry Tanks won't be too far away (around 4-5 techs).


What do you think?

Personally, i think it's generally a bad idea. Infantry and arty comes at the exactly right time.
In general defense should be always better than offence. WWI and WWII showed that attacking forces
had more casualties than defenders almost with no exceptions. So adding infantry before introducing powerful
attacking units is a good idea.

Or put s.th. like "Early tanks" to replaceable parts or somewhere else before maybe with 10.5.2 as stats

I think the tanks we have come early enough. Actually those are early tanks.. We also have modern armor, remember?

So i would leave infantry, tanks and arty exactly the way it is.
Just my opinion, not trying to stir emotions here

 

[player1 fanatic]

Personally, i think it's generally a bad idea. Infantry and arty comes at the exactly right time.
In general defense should be always better than offence. WWI and WWII showed that attacking forces
had more casualties than defenders almost with no exceptions. So adding infantry before introducing powerful
attacking units is a good idea.

You don't really need defeding unit with defense almost double then best attacking unit to have better defense then offense.

Even Riflemen gives good defense against Cavalry if it's foritifed and in city with size greater then 6.

City bonus: 50%
Minimal terrain bonus: 10%
Fortifed bonus: 25%
Total bonus: 85%
Or 11.1 defense Riflemen.
(18.5 for Infantry)

 

[Siddhartha]

I think they should increase the offensive value of infantry to at least 8 and then add a heavy machine gun (perhaps obtained with steel) and an anti-tank gun as units.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Yep, that was my thought EXACTLY!! Create a WWI style tank which becomes available with, say, combustion (along with bi-planes!). Though it might be just as good to put the discovery of artillery and infantry back just a little bit too !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.