[IDEA] New unit upgrade system

[Nimek]

Current unit upgrade system is very unrealistic and spoil the fun from gameplay. Now you can conquer city put into that city one hundred units and upgrade them by simply one click. In this model you can win very easily cause all you must to do is discover new military tech and upgrade another tech and upgrade - build a strong military is not an effort just very simple upgrade. So my idea:

1 Upgrade should be only available in cities
2 Disable upgrades posibilities in cities when its in rebel state. (now you can capture enemy city - put in your units and upgrade them in the same turn !!!)
3 Allow only one unit upgrade per turn in city (very important and realistic witch big impact to the gameplay)
4 Upgrades from very old units to modern should take more than one turn. For example ehrn you uprade from knight to tank it should take 2 turn cause normaly you should upgrade knight to cavlary and than to tank (or allow units to upgrade only one step higher in upgrade hierarchy)
5 If you cant build that type of unit in city that you want to upgrade (
for ex, city dont have required building or resource ) you cant upgrade unit also.

Another thing is we should make some building required to build tanks cause they are very powerfull and sophisticated weapon. How city without war factory only with resources can build tank ???

This changes will better acurate to reality cause know the game is too easy. Now in one turn you discover new military tech and in another turn after upgrades you have entire new the best army and everything you can do during wartime in captured city. One big nonsense.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Current unit upgrade system is very unrealistic and spoil the fun from gameplay. Now you can conquer city put into that city one hundred units and upgrade them by simply one click. In this model you can win very easily cause all you must to do is discover new military tech and upgrade another tech and upgrade - build a strong military is not an effort just very simple upgrade. So my idea:

1 Upgrade should be only available in cities
2 Disable upgrades posibilities in cities when its in rebel state. (now you can capture enemy city - put in your units and upgrade them in the same turn !!!)
3 Allow only one unit upgrade per turn in city (very important and realistic witch big impact to the gameplay)
4 Upgrades from very old units to modern should take more than one turn. For example ehrn you uprade from knight to tank it should take 2 turn cause normaly you should upgrade knight to cavlary and than to tank (or allow units to upgrade only one step higher in upgrade hierarchy)
5 If you cant build that type of unit in city that you want to upgrade (
for ex, city dont have required building or resource ) you cant upgrade unit also.

Another thing is we should make some building required to build tanks cause they are very powerfull and sophisticated weapon. How city without war factory only with resources can build tank ???

This changes will better acurate to reality cause know the game is too easy. Now in one turn you discover new military tech and in another turn after upgrades you have entire new the best army and everything you can do during wartime in captured city. One big nonsense.

Interesting ideas.

5) is already in c2c.

1) is what they had in Civ III but changed in Civ IV because of the micro management.

4) But what if you can't build those intermediate units because you don't have the resources? This happens a lot.

2) You can take a story teller with you and suppress the rebellion as soon as you conquer the city. So this won't work.

3) If you have the money why shouldn't you be able to upgrade all in one turn. After all a turn is many years or even generations.

 

[Nimek]

@Dancing Hoskuld

I understand your point of view. But for me current upgrade system make game to easy to play.

So can you give as a gameoption "Disable unit upgrades" ?

Example In real world its normal that after discover of tank armies disbanded their cavlary and started to build new units not upgrade the old ones

 

[draz]

You could just... not do it if you think it's overpowered. AI needs all the help it can get so disabling it altogether is probably not a good idea.

 

[Talin2009]

Please don't do it. I don't really want to micromanage upgrade of 200-300 swordsman-xbowman-arquebuseers first to musketeers then 1 per turn to riflemen etc. etc.

That doesn't sound like a fun idea.

And current military balance in mod means there are stacks of hundreds of troops.

 

[draz]

And current military balance in mod means there are stacks of hundreds of troops.

You mean the AI, or do you do it as well? I prefer small stacks of elite troops, personally.

 

[Thunderbrd]

@Dancing Hoskuld

I understand your point of view. But for me current upgrade system make game to easy to play.

So can you give as a gameoption "Disable unit upgrades" ?

Example In real world its normal that after discover of tank armies disbanded their cavlary and started to build new units not upgrade the old ones

An interesting game option, I'll give it that. I may eventually do that for you. Such an option would actually be quite interesting on a maximum length gamespeed. It'd need some adaptation for the ai, no doubt.

 

[T C]

Interesting ideas.

2) You can take a story teller with you and suppress the rebellion as soon as you conquer the city. So this won't work.

Ah, so that's what storytellers are for. I will remember to have a few with my armies now.

 

[Talin2009]

You mean the AI, or do you do it as well? I prefer small stacks of elite troops, personally.

I mean both me and AI. (classical and forth, of course i dont build hundreds in prehistoric where every bit of gold is valuable).

Since AI builds hundreds of them i have to do the same. If i want to play peaceful game i don't want AI to even think about attacking me (power ratio), if i plan to attack, i want several armies to attack from several directions and blitzkrieg. I usually place several main stacks (3-4-5) around my land, each mixed - infantry/mounted/siege/defence/1-2 medics/1-2 GGs.

There is so much gold in every game anyway, that army size doesn't affect it.

 

[Cyrusfan]

An interesting game option, I'll give it that. I may eventually do that for you. Such an option would actually be quite interesting on a maximum length gamespeed. It'd need some adaptation for the ai, no doubt.

+1 for the option from an eternity player. You'll have to take a look at anything that affects upgrade costs so that they're not nerfed too badly, but I think most have additional effects that make them worthwhile (SunTzu's Academy gives you more GG points from battles, I think, and Lead By Warlord gives a lot of other benefits, for example).

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well units that require a building such as Canoes to Wooden Ships or Scouts to Hunters, etc still need a building (Shipwright and Master Hunter) in a city to upgrade them.

 

[ls612]

Could we please hold off for now on touching the Unit Upgrade system? I have an idea for it that will come when the Galactic Era is added, and Thunderbrd is making some changes to it as well.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Could we please hold off for now on touching the Unit Upgrade system? I have an idea for it that will come when the Galactic Era is added, and Thunderbrd is making some changes to it as well.

Well I don't think we should change it. I think its complex enough as it is. So my vote would be no to the proposal.

 

[ls612]

Well I don't think we should change it. I think its complex enough as it is. So my vote would be no to the proposal.

I'll PM you the details of my Circular Upgrade Chains idea soonish.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I'll PM you the details of my Circular Upgrade Chains idea soonish.

Wait what happens if you select "auto upgrade" in a circular upgrade chain?

Also the unit upgrade tree is looking really squished now. We need it to expand more to the right.

 

[Nimek]

What do you think about option to only upgrade units that belongs to the same era?

For example in real world you can upgrade one tank to another but you cant upgrade cavalry to tank.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

What do you think about option to only upgrade units that belongs to the same era?

I think it sounds like bad gameplay. Actually, I know that. The ability to carry over XP from one era to the next is vital if you're trying to maintain a small, elite force instead of a sprawling standing army. Forcing the latter is the opposite of fun.

It's already annoying to have to move units to the cultural radius of a specific city to upgrade them, instead of being able to do so anywhere on the trade network.

If this makes the game "too easy," the solution is, first, to play on a higher difficulty level, and second, to continue improving the AI, not to either remove features of the base game or to introduce even more tedious micromanagement to the upgrade system.

For example in real world you can upgrade one tank to another but you cant upgrade cavalry to tank.

Modern armored and air cavalry divisions would certainly be surprised to learn this, considering that most of them share a unit designation and contiguous existence with pre-mechanized cavalry divisions.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Not to mention that the real life Queen's Horse Guard are also Light Tank. Same men different equipment.

 

[Nimek]

@MoogleEmpMog

You convinced me. You have right. It is better to improve AI.