abbamouse
Rodent
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2002
- Messages
- 177
I've been thinking of how to implement more realistic nukes in the game. I think one big problem has been that if you make nukes as powerful as they are in real life, then the side that nukes first can win by taking out all opposing ciites and nukes. In real life, not only do states pursue a survivable second-strike force (ie subs, always having some bombers in the air, etc) but they also have the ability to adopt a launch-on-warning or even launch-under-attack strategy. If you see the enemy launching a few thousand missiles then you can launch yours before the strike hits you. Knowing this, the enemy is less likely to attack. The situation is referred to as MAD, for Mutually Assured Destruction.
So how can we implement this in Civ IV? I have a proposal, although I'm not sure if I have the programming skills to make it work. Replace the ICBM with the Warhead (let's ignore whether to add tactical nukes for the moment, since MAD is a strategic principle). Warheads require a city imporvement called Missile Field or ICBM Silos to build. In addition to allowing you to build Warheads, the ICBM Silos allow you to airdrop them (same function as airports, but would need to be renamed). As with airdrop from airports, the drop ends the Warhead's turn. Since you probably want to drop nukes on other civ's cities, the "airdrop (launch) warhead" function would need to allow you to drop anywhere, not just your own cities.
As for the warheads, they need only have a button to detonate them, tied to the nuke effect (which could then be modified to be more realistic). They would also need to be unkillable by anything except another nuke (otherwise when you dropped warheads onto enemy cities the opponent could attack them with Mech Inf or whatever).
So here's how a nuclear war would work:
America wants to nuke Russia. So America builds a few ICBM Silos and lots of Nuclear Warheads. When America is ready to strike, it "launches" (airdrops) warheads from its cities. But wait, the game won't allow you to enter opposing territory without a declaration of war. So America declares war on Russia. Russia therefore knows they are being attacked and sees the warheads appear "in" (ie heading towards) their cities. Like Spies, there is little the Russians can do to prevent America from dropping Warheads -- however, they can respond by "launching" their own warheads at American cities. On the next American turn, they detonate the nukes, obliterating half the Russian population, destroying many buildings and infrastructure, and severely damaging some units (ie tanks) while killing others outright (ie bombers trapped in airfields). Russia then responds by returning the favor, detonating all the warheads they dropped on US cities. As long as Russia isn't 100% destroyed, it will have a chance to retaliate. Knowing this, the Americans decide that maybe it would be best to refrain from nuking the Russians.
So as I see it, the ICBM Silos building needs to
1. Enable warhead construction
2. Enable "launch" of warheads (ie airdrop) like an airport does for other units
while the Warhead unit needs to
1. Have a detonate function like the existing ICBM
2. Have the ability to enter enemy cities like a Spy
3. Be invulnerable to attack by most enemy units like a Spy
These seem like things that could be implemented in Civ IV, though I don't know enough about the Python to determine if everything I mention is possible.
Final problems:
1. What to do about open borders? This could represent letting your guard down and thus becoming vulnerable to a first strike, or it could simply be the case that when one civ moves warheads into another's cities, the other civ will return the favor (thus re-establishing MAD). My preferred option would be to bar warheads from dropping onto anyting except your own territory or the territory of a civ with which you're at war.
2. The AI would have no idea how to implement MAD, so until the SDK comes out this would probably be limited to a MP mod.
Any ideas or suggestions on how to implement this crucial piece of nuclear strategy? I know it's clunky to require two turns (ie two years) to conduct a nuclear strike, but I think it's more important to have some sort of MAD than to have quicker nukes that lack realistic effects or strategies.
So how can we implement this in Civ IV? I have a proposal, although I'm not sure if I have the programming skills to make it work. Replace the ICBM with the Warhead (let's ignore whether to add tactical nukes for the moment, since MAD is a strategic principle). Warheads require a city imporvement called Missile Field or ICBM Silos to build. In addition to allowing you to build Warheads, the ICBM Silos allow you to airdrop them (same function as airports, but would need to be renamed). As with airdrop from airports, the drop ends the Warhead's turn. Since you probably want to drop nukes on other civ's cities, the "airdrop (launch) warhead" function would need to allow you to drop anywhere, not just your own cities.
As for the warheads, they need only have a button to detonate them, tied to the nuke effect (which could then be modified to be more realistic). They would also need to be unkillable by anything except another nuke (otherwise when you dropped warheads onto enemy cities the opponent could attack them with Mech Inf or whatever).
So here's how a nuclear war would work:
America wants to nuke Russia. So America builds a few ICBM Silos and lots of Nuclear Warheads. When America is ready to strike, it "launches" (airdrops) warheads from its cities. But wait, the game won't allow you to enter opposing territory without a declaration of war. So America declares war on Russia. Russia therefore knows they are being attacked and sees the warheads appear "in" (ie heading towards) their cities. Like Spies, there is little the Russians can do to prevent America from dropping Warheads -- however, they can respond by "launching" their own warheads at American cities. On the next American turn, they detonate the nukes, obliterating half the Russian population, destroying many buildings and infrastructure, and severely damaging some units (ie tanks) while killing others outright (ie bombers trapped in airfields). Russia then responds by returning the favor, detonating all the warheads they dropped on US cities. As long as Russia isn't 100% destroyed, it will have a chance to retaliate. Knowing this, the Americans decide that maybe it would be best to refrain from nuking the Russians.
So as I see it, the ICBM Silos building needs to
1. Enable warhead construction
2. Enable "launch" of warheads (ie airdrop) like an airport does for other units
while the Warhead unit needs to
1. Have a detonate function like the existing ICBM
2. Have the ability to enter enemy cities like a Spy
3. Be invulnerable to attack by most enemy units like a Spy
These seem like things that could be implemented in Civ IV, though I don't know enough about the Python to determine if everything I mention is possible.
Final problems:
1. What to do about open borders? This could represent letting your guard down and thus becoming vulnerable to a first strike, or it could simply be the case that when one civ moves warheads into another's cities, the other civ will return the favor (thus re-establishing MAD). My preferred option would be to bar warheads from dropping onto anyting except your own territory or the territory of a civ with which you're at war.
2. The AI would have no idea how to implement MAD, so until the SDK comes out this would probably be limited to a MP mod.
Any ideas or suggestions on how to implement this crucial piece of nuclear strategy? I know it's clunky to require two turns (ie two years) to conduct a nuclear strike, but I think it's more important to have some sort of MAD than to have quicker nukes that lack realistic effects or strategies.
MAD is supposed to be a deterrent... it's not ever supposed to actually happen 
if enemy still have nukes in next turn 
Then thare is a tactical dimension in game not just suicide. Then you have to thinks how i or enemy retaliate when my or his cities are lost...
