idea: scrap the fortify mission

[ilteroi]

another day, another idea! it might sound wild but hear me out.

right now (some) units can fortify, thus gaining a defense bonus. this doubles if the unit stays fortified for more than one turn. fortification lasts forever. in parallel, there is the "alert" mission, which is similar but the unit wakes up when an enemy is nearby.

the problem is, the AI doesn't really know how to use fortify. for humans it's also a bit tricky to handle, because it's easy to forget about fortified units. but simple skipping the turn doesn't give a defensive bonus.

so the proposal is to scrap fortify completely and only grant defensive bonuses if the unit is inside an actual fort (edit: so no bonus for alert either)

this solves both the AI problem and the usability problem.

opinions?

 

[Txurce]

another day, another idea! it might sound wild but hear me out.

right now (some) units can fortify, thus gaining a defense bonus. this doubles if the unit stays fortified for more than one turn. fortification lasts forever. in parallel, there is the "alert" mission, which is similar but the unit wakes up when an enemy is nearby.

the problem is, the AI doesn't really know how to use fortify. for humans it's also a bit tricky to handle, because it's easy to forget about fortified units. but simple skipping the turn doesn't give a defensive bonus.

so the proposal is to scrap fortify completely and only grant defensive bonuses if the unit is inside an actual fort.

this solves both the AI problem and the usability problem.

opinions?

I like the general thrust. What about scrapping the doubling of "fortify," and giving "alert" the same bonus?

 

[Stalker0]

Feels like we are too far down, as this honestly is a game changing feature in my eyes. Best to leave for mod mods in the future.

 

[raphaell666]

The "issue" I see is when comparing Fortify to actual Forts, is that Fortify can be used anywhere (e.g. on top of a strategic resource you need to protect) while Forts have to be built and replace whatever improvement they are built on top of.

I find Fortify an interesting mechanic, I vote for it to not be scraped.

I think it works decently well currently, if possible one improvement would be scraping Alert instead, and making so that a Fortified unit will always be "woken up" when an enemy unit is nearby, without losing the Fortify bonus immediately (I actually dislike this about Alert).

 

[vyyt]

Isn't it one of the biggest difference between the infantry and the horse/mobile units? I like the fortify feature even if it troubles AI a bit and I do not like the idea of removing it altogether. Although, I would be fine with automatic "fortifying" if the unit has not moved last turn (and doubling the bonus if it has not moved for more than 1 turn) - but would this be possible?

 

[Bascule2000]

making so that a Fortified unit will always be "woken up" when an enemy unit is nearby

Please leave a way to turn off units so I don't have to micro everything every turn! This is something that bugs me about the heal option, it wakes up the unit if it takes damage even if that damage is less than the amount it heals each turn.

 

[Zarggg]

Does the "Sleep" button not appear for mounted units?

 

[Moi Magnus]

Feels like we are too far down, as this honestly is a game changing feature in my eyes. Best to leave for mod mods in the future.

Current situation is very unfrienfly:
+ "do nothing" is useless, since "alert" is stricly better gameplay wise BUT it is easy to forget it.
=> There is absolutely no reason for "do nothing" to not give the Alert defense bonus.
+ I did not know that Alert and Fortify had different bonus (it didn't even cross my mind that it was possible), and I still don't find any good reason for this "feature" to exist.

While I agree that removing the bonus is game chanching. I consider that giving the fortify bonus to "do nothing" and "alert" (for every unit that can fortify) is nearest to a "bug fix" than a true change.

 

[raphaell666]

Please leave a way to turn off units so I don't have to micro everything every turn! This is something that bugs me about the heal option, it wakes up the unit if it takes damage even if that damage is less than the amount it heals each turn.

I find it easy enough to just press "F" or "H" again for each unit, or if you are using a Steam Controller it is also easy and fast to micro. Either way, I understand your point, but I am not sure there is a way to satisfy everyone.

 

[Deadstarre]

scrapping the fortify mechanic without a vast overhaul of what a "fort" is wouldn't be an appealing option.

it would be appealing though if:

1) melee units could build forts anywhere friendly or neutral (very fast build time)
2) forts did not replace features or improvements
3) forts had to follow the same spacing logic as cities (hugely important to make them rare)

thatd actually be an awesome addition to gameplay, and even if the AI wasn't as good at placing them strategically as a player, so long as they placed them and considered occupying them when combat was near, it'd be an enormous improvement over what the AI does currently with fortify (aka nothing)


all that said, if it never gets done in VP thats fine, this is just a flat out player advantage vs the AI that in some way compensates all the bonuses they have on us. but in the meanwhile what i've done already for my games since i am a masochist is - lengthen fortify to 3 turns before capping, nerfed down to %10 per turn.

 

[tu_79]

I'd like to echo Moi Magnus, as current mechanics are a bit obscure, but also there has to be a way for melee to fortify better than mounted.

If I were to simplify this, I'd like to see:
+ Leave current options for behaviour: 'do nothing' makes your unit ask for orders next turn, 'alert' makes your unit ask for orders when there is an enemy unit nearby, 'defend/sleep' never ask for orders.
+ Actual defense value increases only with the number of turns not moving. 1 turn without moving gives x% defense if the unit is allowed to fortify. 2 turns without moving gives 2x% defense if the unit is inside a defensive building and is allowed to fortify.

So, if I order a unit to do nothing twice, it gains the defense bonus anyways.

 

[ElliotS]

right now (some) units can fortify, thus gaining a defense bonus. this doubles if the unit stays fortified for more than one turn.

Today I learned.

This is that part that's unfriendly.

Tu's solution is what I would suggest as well if possible.

 

[Infixo]

Guys, you really can create problems out of nothing.
The player has a wide choice of actions, including „do nothing”. „Do nothing” means exactly that - the unit does nothing. It doesn’t matter if it’s gameplay wise or not, it’s your choice to make.
Fortify and Alert give the same bonus, afaik. You can use Improved Military Overview to check that out. It shows all units that are fortified or on alert, etc. So, no, I won’t forget about them if I don’t want to - there are tools.
Also, Mounted and Armor units cannot fortify. It’s always been like this. They have the icon, but it doesn’t do anything.
And finally, Sleep is like Do Nothing, but for many turns.
Various options for various situations. I like it that way.

 

[Hinin]

I totally agree with Infixo : if you don't want your unit to fortify, press the space bar, and it's done. If you want your unit to fortify, press F. Having more choices is always best, and, from what I've seen, the AI uses the fortify mechanic well enough.

 

[tu_79]

Guys, you really can create problems out of nothing.

the problem is, the AI doesn't really know how to use fortify

 

[Deadstarre]

2 separate discussions in this thread. on one hand there is people who want it to be easier to get the fortify bonus (a "choice" between a bonus and no bonus is not a choice - of course its stupid that units which "do nothing" get no bonus as its the exact same thing as fortifying aka not moving)

and the other, is about the fortify bonus itself - which the AI does not make proper use of in combat. they move, or they attack - they do not fortify (or sit still) smart positions with melee units the way players do. the only time you see an AI making use of fortify is barbs in encampment, and -maybe- the first turn you declare a war, when youre attacking units that didnt know they were in a war.

 

[Txurce]

2 separate discussions in this thread. on one hand there is people who want it to be easier to get the fortify bonus (a "choice" between a bonus and no bonus is not a choice - of course its stupid that units which "do nothing" get no bonus as its the exact same thing as fortifying aka not moving)

and the other, is about the fortify bonus itself - which the AI does not make proper use of in combat. they move, or they attack - they do not fortify smart positions with melee units the way players do. the only time you see an AI making use of fortify is barbs in encampment, and -maybe- the first turn you declare a war, when youre attacking units that didnt know they were in a war.

You're right. So: doing nothing or going on alert should be the same as fortifying. The AI is nw on even footing, and the game is simplified for humans (who clearly needed it, since most of us didn't even know the rule).

 

[Deadstarre]

You're right. So: doing nothing or going on alert should be the same as fortifying. The AI is nw on even footing, and the game is simplified for humans (who clearly needed it, since most of us didn't even know the rule).

it should, but again the AI still can't make use of it - they only know move or attack when the chips are down and units are head to head. they will not sit still.

its a big part of why theyre bad at combat in the first place, many times the correct move is simply staying put


edit: come to think of it, scouting units may be the only ones that will occasionally smartly stay put outside of a garrison. Given they have a completely different role than military units, it makes sense they follow a bit different logic.

 

[ScooterDWiebels]

it should, but again the AI still can't make use of it - they only know move or attack when the chips are down and units are head to head. they will not sit still.

its a big part of why theyre bad at combat in the first place, many times the correct move is simply staying put

Kind of reminds me of trench warfare of WW1

 

[Iamblichos]

Bingo. If the AI doesn't know how to use it, then when we should a) find if it is worthy making them use it or b) (which is what I'd like) scrap it.